Apollo 14 Debriefing, 1971

00:00speaker 1You're you're coming through loud and clear.

00:04speaker 2Okay, I guess we got three mics. One for each. More mics than we need. Morning, Charles.

00:15speaker 3Hello. How are you?

00:17speaker 2Fine. How are you?

00:18speaker 3Fine.

00:19speaker 2Good. Very fine.

00:22speaker 3Good.

00:35speaker 2Yeah, we tried to go through this, uh, you know, your debrief last night, the the, uh, printed one. You know, this all the stuff that you guys did on on tape, your tech debrief, to get those so that we'd try and not repeat, you know, only amplify stuff. And so we've tried to come up, didn't have much time to do that, but I hope we got most of that stuff.

01:02speaker 2And, uh,

01:03speaker 1Okay.

01:04speaker 2if you if you think we're hitting some area that you think, you know, is a conflict with that, well, yell and tell us and we'll

01:11speaker 1All righty.

01:12speaker 2change it around. And some of the things, now there were some things that you guys said yesterday, you know, when I was in the project debrief, that that probably, uh, bear on some of these, too.

01:33speaker 1Good morning.

01:35speaker 2Good morning, Ed.

01:48speaker 1Thanks.

01:56speaker 1It's cold in here this morning.

01:58speaker 2Yeah?

02:01speaker 2Morning, Bill.

02:02speaker 1Morning.

02:03speaker 2Hi.

02:04speaker 1Hi, Craig.

02:05speaker 2Who are using those mics?

02:07speaker 1I don't know. I don't know if they're hot or not. Just hot on the floor.

02:12speaker 2They're probably, uh, you know, start asking questions, identify yourself, so, yeah, they'll be transcribing your voices.

02:19speaker 1Yeah. Okay.

02:20speaker 2And say who these people are.

02:36speaker 2Cecil.

02:41speaker 2Some I know, some I don't. Sources of, uh, sources of

02:52speaker 2sources of potassium in the diet.

02:57speaker 2Here, I want to get them from somebody.

02:58speaker 1Yeah, I think Smith had them wrapped up.

03:04speaker 2Yeah, I don't know how many really had.

03:05speaker 1Yeah, I don't know either.

03:07speaker 2Yeah, I don't either. We don't have any.

03:11speaker 2Got some stuff I'd like.

03:12speaker 1Oh, picture of daily was a lot better than the one they had yesterday.

03:15speaker 2More artistic, too. Yeah.

03:27speaker 1Sorry about that. I think we're in on the door, though.

03:31speaker 2Can you write? I got some things, uh, here that I thought I'd, uh, go over, say, that was that.

03:54speaker 2I want to watch the action.

03:56speaker 1There isn't anything you can do.

03:58speaker 2I know. I know what you do.

04:03speaker 1Okay, the show's all yours.

04:04speaker 2What kind of a format do you have in mind today?

04:06speaker 1Okay, uh,

04:07speaker 2Questions and answers?

04:08speaker 1Yeah. Uh, questions and answers. Uh, I guess we ought to, for the tape, identify, this is Dr. Berry, and for the medical debriefing, and I'll try and, uh, ask most of the questions. If people have some here, we'll try and hand them in that way. If they're not, will you identify yourself? And I think they can identify you guys' voices pretty well already on the tape, so there shouldn't be any problem with with the tape thing.

04:31speaker 2Chuck, I think we're going to have to pick up those mics. You're

04:33speaker 1They're not loud enough?

04:35speaker 2It's a little down here, yeah.

04:38speaker 1Mr. Barnhart?

04:39speaker 2Where is he?

04:40speaker 1I'll take care of it. He'll be outside, I guess.

04:43speaker 2Can you Can you get them to turn them up some?

04:45speaker 1Well, we can yell for a while here if it'll help, and then we can get them to turn them up some.

04:51speaker 2Give us a test count.

04:52speaker 1We'll just speak up loud, won't we?

04:54speaker 21 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1. Nothing's coming out of those.

05:02speaker 1Is that where it's coming from, there?

05:04speaker 2No, Craig will get somebody in.

05:12speaker 2Try it again.

05:13speaker 11 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1. Test out.

05:17speaker 2Sounding better. Screw it down.

05:19speaker 1Huh?

05:20speaker 2I think the knobs are wrong on this one.

05:22speaker 1We can hear you loud and clear back there.

05:24speaker 2Well, it's not coming in there, though. They're not getting it in there.

05:30speaker 1Okay. We can hear them great, but they're not hearing us very well.

05:34speaker 2I think both of you are real fine back there. They want that mic turned

05:37speaker 1Yes, inside.

05:39speaker 2Inside.

05:40speaker 1The speaker, not the mic.

05:42speaker 2Okay. I set it on the minimum setting in here instead of the max. The max seems to be min and vice versa.

05:52speaker 1Oh, really?

05:55speaker 2Hey, that's a lot better.

05:57speaker 1Okay, that did it. It's labeled wrong.

05:59speaker 2They're they're just screwed up in there.

06:01speaker 1That's too much.

06:02speaker 2Yeah.

06:03speaker 1Yeah, we can we can hear you loud and clear now.

06:06speaker 2That's great. Okay.

06:07speaker 1Okay. Good show.

06:12speaker 2Okay. I'm going to start a a little bit, uh, out of out of order here, but one of the things that sort of pervades it all is medical requirements. And in this section 27, you had some comments about, uh, the medical requirements, and I thought we ought to we ought to just get one one question with you. We, in explaining the medical requirements, we have one opportunity to do that with, uh, with Deke, of course, at the at the time that we're trying to get the document, the medical requirements document, published. The second, uh, the only opportunity we really get to go over that with you was at the, uh, the 30-day debrief, uh, 30-day briefing, uh, prior to the flight. Now, did you guys feel that you had an understanding of what the requirements were, because when I read this, it sounds like you did not. Is that true?

07:04speaker 1I think we were I read the forms, Chuck, and, uh, understood in general what what you were after, at least the the number of sessions we had. I think it's a question of degree here.

07:19speaker 2Yeah.

07:20speaker 1Okay.

07:21speaker 2Well, one of the things we're trying is a very valid thing, like like, uh, Al's comments about, uh, you know, you should substantiate the requirements. No question about that. They should be clear. They should be clear to you in the sense that you want to know that what you are doing is is worthwhile, and the stuff is used, and it isn't it isn't wasted somewhere down the line. Somebody isn't just doing it for fun.

07:43speaker 1Yeah.

07:44speaker 2And we try, uh, that's something we try to iron out pretty hard in our own house. And one of the things I'd like to do is if we run, if you guys end up at, uh, sometime before the end of of the quarantine period here, and have some time, we ought to have that data together by then, and then prior to the time that that, uh, we end up getting you out, if you've got a an hour sometime, we might be able to go over with you and and show you, here's here's what we saw with you in with the lab data and the whole bit, and say, because, you know, it's very hard to get back together again after you get out of here to do that sort of thing. Everybody says they'd like to know what happened, and then we could do that to you in here and tell you that, uh, and here are the samples that were used to do that, so you have some idea of understanding about how that happened. Would that be worthwhile to you?

08:32speaker 1Yeah, the comment was made not from a point of view of specific complaint about our flight, but just, uh, I think, a continuing understanding between the two, uh, directorates, uh, ahead of time, because it's it's the kind of thing, well, just like with other scientific experiments, unless the crew understands the reasons and agrees with it, you know, the thing is not going to be a successful experiment.

08:53speaker 2Amen.

08:54speaker 1So, uh, it wasn't The comment wasn't made, uh, from a point of, uh, criticizing anything specifically about our protocol at all. Just to reiterate what, uh, what everybody ought to know but doesn't know or doesn't always think about.

09:07speaker 2Yeah. Good.

09:09speaker 1And I think, Chuck, also, uh, probably the last few weeks before flight is not the time to try to brief the crew on the medical requirements. At that time, our thoughts are quite a bit on other things, and perhaps it needs to come earlier than that, uh, earlier.

09:29speaker 2That's a good That's a good point.

09:32speaker 1Uh, I think each one of us is concerned with ourselves medically as as the medical affects the physiology of flight, etc., etc., but the last few weeks, uh, you just can't get yourself cranked up to really think about those things, except for the things that are going to happen to you so you can be mentally prepared for it.

09:53speaker 2Right. Right.

09:55speaker 1I think I may have precipitated that comment, uh, at least when we got

10:00speaker 1started that at about uh and and I guess it really wasn't a complaint, Chuck, as much as just a statement that it's a drag, you know, going through uh collecting urine for 24 hours and so forth. And and, you know, uh I just wanted to toss it in that you sure hope that it's worthwhile. And and I think it would be interesting to sit down and see how you what you're really doing with all that.

10:24speaker 2Yeah, well, I think that's really needed because uh we're trying to do that right now with the Skylab crews to tell you what we really know about what happens to man, what we know from the Russian side of the thing as to what's happened on even their longer one, put the thing together and say, "Here's what here's what we don't know and why why we need to know it."

10:42speaker 3Well, I think I think we understood uh or I understood your your need to work out the total body water, but the actual mechanics of how that fit into a 24-hour urine collection six times and and all the blood drawing and how that all fit into the picture, the theoretical picture you were painting for us, I never understood that.

11:03speaker 2Right. Okay.

11:04speaker 3Fair enough.

11:05speaker 1Why don't, you know, I think everybody understands all these things. Why don't uh why don't we make a specific recommendation at this point? Now, you know, all of the flight crews have a a training plan which is set up about the time that the flight crews are designated. And includes all kinds of things on the simulators and scientific briefings and everything else. And why is why wouldn't the best way to do it would actually be to schedule the time for medical briefings early in the training program?

11:34speaker 1Because I think if you all uh conversely, if you all feel that uh the experiment's worthwhile doing, you want to get your protocol settled early in in the game so you have all the equipment or whatever you need ready, uh so it will be a satisfactory test.

11:52speaker 1So, I would suggest that maybe sometime uh something be scheduled in the in the crew training program early in the game.

11:59speaker 2Yeah.

12:00speaker 1And then it becomes one of those things you've got to check off, like systems briefings and everything else.

12:05speaker 3And I should think that briefing should consist of uh a bit of the theoretical thing you're trying to do,

12:13speaker 2Right.

12:14speaker 3followed by the mechanics and the protocol of what that means to you.

12:17speaker 2Yeah, that's right.

12:18speaker 3The mechanics of how you go about doing it, the number of punctures and where you're going to do it, and how many urine samples and this sort of thing, just so the guys understand.

12:24speaker 2Great. Great. Okay, will do. I think that's great. Uh I'd like to go back and pick up one then on on the uh exercise uh area. You you mentioned this in the debrief and you mentioned it again in the uh uh yesterday, but can you give me some idea, now you said you missed uh as I remember the the debriefing statements here, you commented that you missed one day on the way out and one day on the way back.

12:52speaker 2And can you can you say what you did in time, uh what what the exercise consisted of, what you did roughly in time? I know you won't know to the minute or second or anything, but as roughly as you can. And then, uh what if you have any idea, did you try and judge what you did as far as did you try and get a a heart rate increase or did you try and judge your ex- your exercise level in any way? And this is particularly important for us in trying to separate out the effects that are different between uh the two of you who are on the surface versus Stu who was in the in the spacecraft all the time. So, we want to keep that, we want to get that straight if we can.

13:34speaker 2Could you just sort of brief the exercises the way you did it? Maybe each of you have to do it because you probably did it differently.

13:40speaker 1Well, what we were shooting for was about a 10-minute period per day, exclusive of the two days of lunar surface activity for the two of us, and uh Stu was going to try to get uh about 10-minute period per day, including those days.

13:58speaker 1The uh method of exercise during the 10-minute period was to use this Exer-Gym device which we have. And uh to operate that in such a fashion that the old what they call the big four, where you start out with the with your legs and uh feet in two loops and your hands controlling the friction device from a crouch position to a full stretch out, and do that several times. Then hold the uh

14:30speaker 1the uh fixed loops and use the legs in the movable loops, and then hold uh fixed loops with the with the toes and use the biceps on the movable loops. That's the general pattern that we tried to follow. But we didn't make all of those time periods. We missed the uh first day out because of uh well, we didn't have it scheduled first day out, did we?

14:55speaker 4Well, it was in the flight plan, but we hadn't I don't think anybody's going to exercise the first day anyway, uh in in

15:01speaker 1Yeah.

15:02speaker 4In fact, it should never have been in the flight plan to exercise the first day.

15:06speaker 2Pretty hard to get that in in that first day. I don't see how you do it.

15:08speaker 1Yeah, we had the problem with the docking probe, so that put us behind.

15:11speaker 2You don't really need it in that first day anyway, but

15:14speaker 4Well, uh in retrospect, I think that it would probably have alleviated some of the sore back muscles that first day to go ahead and done it, in my case, anyhow.

15:28speaker 1It was kind of like uh one of those things where they said, "Okay, you want to exercise?" Put it in the flight plan. I said, "Yeah, we got to have it in the flight plan, we won't do it. Where are we going to put it?" I said, "Put it in before lunch every day, before the mid-meal every day." That's how it got in there.

15:42speaker 1Okay. Did Now, you said Exer-Gym or is it is it is it the Exer-Genie?

15:47speaker 3Exer-Gym, I think.

15:49speaker 4Exer-Gym's a trade name of it.

15:50speaker 1Yeah, they're both similar devices.

15:52speaker 2It's the same thing. It's the friction one. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay.

15:57speaker 2And and so 10 minutes a day is what you had programmed for the thing. And did you have did you have any idea did you feel that you really got a got a fair amount did you get up any increase in breathing rate or heart rate that you were aware of when you did it?

16:11speaker 1Yeah, we didn't do it quantitatively, but certainly uh

16:14speaker 2Yeah.

16:14speaker 3I always tried to stop uh short of of cracking a sweat. It's just not desirable to get all sweaty in the spacecraft. And I felt like I was pulling it somewhere around 10 to 15 minutes. I could feel the heart rate going up and the breathing going up, but I would never do it to the point of sweat.

16:32speaker 2Okay.

16:33speaker 3And it's not a vigorous exercise. It's more of it's a tension exercise.

16:38speaker 2Right.

16:39speaker 3I put put enough load on it where it was a a hard pull, but a slow pull.

16:44speaker 2Right.

16:46speaker 2Okay, Stu, did yours go about that same way then for the whole time, even when you were alone?

16:50speaker 4Yeah, I I'd like to just summarize exercise uh in my case uh. I uh

16:58speaker 4I probably didn't exercise as much uh in retrospect as I would have if I were doing it again, uh for various and sundry reasons. Uh one is, you know, you you don't feel a need for the exercise. You just got to say, "Well, I'm going to I'm going to go do this."

17:15speaker 4And uh there were a couple of times that we got out the uh, you know, it says exercise period, so we got out the exerciser and Al and Ed had have at it, and I'd be doing something or I'd say, "Well, I'll put it over here and I'll get to it in a minute."

17:31speaker 4And uh I know on one occasion uh several hours later, I finally got around to getting uh to getting it and uh and doing some exercise on it.

17:41speaker 4The uh I'd say probably 5 to 10 minutes was the length of time. Uh I uh I would strain pretty hard. I didn't work up a sweat, but you know, you use this thing, you can use it about any way you want. You can drag them through the ropes, or it's really designed to where you hold

18:00speaker 4and do an isometric first, and then go right from the isometric into the isotonic, and and and you get the whole the whole smear. Uh so, I'd hold uh hold pressure on the thing and and strain against it, and you know, you can strain as little or as hard as you want, but I'd strain reasonably hard and and then relax the tension and and pull it up.

18:24speaker 4Uh

18:26speaker 4But I'm trying to think, I'm sure that I missed uh one exercise period on the way out completely that Al and Ed got in. I did no exercise at all in lunar orbit. Uh the thinking of the Exer-Gym was uh never even crossed my mind for those two days.

18:43speaker 4And then in preparation for uh for entry, I said, "Boy, I'm really going to hit that on the way home." As it turned out, I barely got in uh the one the one exercise uh a day uh

18:59speaker 4that that we did on the way home. So, I I would say overall uh I probably or I'm sure I didn't uh hit the Exer-Gym as much as I probably should have.

19:12speaker 2Okay.

19:14speaker 1I don't know how uh, from my point of view at least, how you'd in a case like this, where you're trying to correlate uh the relationship of the exercise that Ed and I did, for example, uh and its benefits or lack thereof with

19:30speaker 1respect to the the uh lunar surface period, which was over 30 hours. I just think the workload, basic workload there alone is enough different to put that exercise thing down in the noise level, as far as the two of us are concerned.

19:44speaker 2I think that's probably very right, Al, and I think that the thing we want to know is, you know, was Stu trying to make up for it in some way with exercise in the spacecraft? Because he obviously, I mean, there's no way he could make up for what you were doing on the lunar surface.

19:58speaker 1He was trying to, but he had a real busy flight.

20:00speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he could do it. And this is what I wanted to find out. Was he Was he trying to do a lot more or something during that time, so?

20:08speaker 2No, I uh I wasn't. I I think that'd be a difficult thing to try to do, really. I I don't know. You're going to maybe with the longer period in in lunar orbit, the CMP may not be quite as busy, or or maybe. I suspect he probably will be. I think it's going to be difficult to uh to get in much exercise there. But uh no, I wasn't

20:35speaker 3It's still very between individual. Yes. It was obvious that Stu's Stu's greater interests were in running the spacecraft, and for example, the P23s took a lot of time, which he might otherwise have allotted. That was a kind of This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. But if you're going to get the individuals to uh try to exercise and respond to exercise, then you're going to have to get to them early and explain the benefits or for the crew as a result of that.

20:58speaker 1Right.

20:59speaker 3Because it really is an individual thing.

21:01speaker 1That's right. And we haven't tried to set any numbers of times that you do anything or anything like that. And so, I think we need to really carefully look at look at that as an area. Okay, uh and while I uh and one that came up yesterday when you guys were talking about uh Myrtle, reminded me of the of the problems you had in flight with the the urine kinking of the urine hose and so forth. Uh how much time Did you make a conscious effort uh in in your own particular case, because it's important trying to chase down your status post-flight here, of of the time that you had the in-suit urine device on? Did Did you have it

21:41speaker 2Me? Well, it wasn't my hose that was kinked, you know.

21:43speaker 1Right. Right. It was Al's, I guess. Twice Al's was, is that right?

21:48speaker 2Probably all the time.

21:49speaker 1All the time, huh? [laughter]

21:51speaker 2We we had it on I guess we'll have to look back on the the transcript or look back over the flight plan to know when we took it off the first time. We all unsuited at the same time, which was about uh 6 6 hours, 7 hours into the flight.

22:08speaker 1All right.

22:09speaker 2Somewhere in there. And uh we put the ECTAs on uh PDI morning, and we took them off only when we got back to the spacecraft after docking. And it was on for those two periods only. And I never experienced any discomfort. I never had any problems whatsoever that uh we discussed pre-flight. No symptoms, no uh of any sort.

22:42speaker 1Great. Well, it looks like, you know, we haven't had any ad- you did well. How did you feel uh That's another one we might just get out of the way. On fluid intake, it sounds like you all thought the water was great, and so you were you were drinking well. Uh did did you were you trying to force fluids? Were you trying to consciously force fluids?

23:04speaker 2Yeah, I think you and Al were.

23:06speaker 3Uh in my case, anyhow, I tried to drink take a drink out of the water gun about every time I went by it. I did find that I preferred the juices to water. And surprisingly enough, as much as I did not care for the juices pre-flight, particularly, I didn't crave them or anything, uh we were drinking a couple of juices per meal a large portion of the time. I was. And in addition, uh taking a shot from the water gun about every time I'd go by it.

23:36speaker 2I I I forced myself to drink the water. Uh not that it tasted bad or anything, but just just to keep the fluid intake up. And so, I would I would drink water uh, you know, like Ed says, every time you pass the water gun, you say, "Well, I think I'll try some of that," and one person would take a drink of water and pass it pass it around and would would put it back up.

24:01speaker 1It uh as I understand, though, you you stated in the debriefing you you thought you drank about half as many juices as they did because

24:06speaker 2I'd say that's probably a good average. Uh they's No, I'd say probably a third less.

24:12speaker 1A third less, okay, in juices. Okay.

24:14speaker 3Yeah, you drank two juices at some.

24:16speaker 2Yeah, I'd drink two occasionally. Toward the toward the end, I was I was drinking two more than uh I was, cuz a lot of times you'd drink a cocoa and a juice, and I'd bypass the cocoa uh and I'd just drink a juice. So, I'd say probably, and this is a wag, but I'd say a third less juice than they did.

24:39speaker 1Okay.

24:40speaker 3Well, I think I kind of decided I was going to try to do everything I could to to uh end up in as good shape as I could at the end of the mission, which included uh keeping the fluid intake and the food intake up, as well as the exercise. And uh that's generally what we tried to do.

24:58speaker 1You did a great job of it, I might add.

25:00speaker 3We had to try to get two juices per per meal, most of the time.

25:07speaker 1Okay, there was a uh question here about did uh for you in particular, Stu, did you eat more, do you feel, while you were while they were with you, Al and Ed were with you in the spacecraft, than when you were alone? Eat and drink better?

25:21speaker 2I saw in your food thing

25:23speaker 1Well, well, I'd say uh Excuse me, go ahead.

25:25speaker 2I saw in your food uh uh commentary there that that you you had difficulty, you know, the food preparation thing, you'd have preferred if you'd have had some like some canned things you could have opened quickly and gotten to when you were alone that way, and I can surely understand that. I think it's something we ought to look at, but

25:41speaker 2Well, that's the way I did eat. Uh as because we had them there. I I guess it didn't come out right, because that's the way I did eat in lunar orbit. I would say uh I'd say the answer to your question would be yes, uh that that I ate more when when they were in there, and but the idea of people being together is is nothing in that. It's the time factor. Yeah. Uh during during the coast during the coast phase, you have more uh you have more time to, you know, to worry about eating. Uh during that lunar orbit phase, I didn't have any time at all, and uh to, you know, any extra time, and particularly with the troubleshooting the high-gain and so forth, uh so uh I didn't have the inclination nor want to go to the trouble of trying to mix up a uh a meal as such, and I didn't much like that the going to all that trouble anyway. So, uh I opened up, you know, can of that chicken salad, I think it was, and I had that for breakfast, and uh then a wet pack, and, you know, that's the type of food that you can really get to in a hurry and eat.

26:53speaker 1Right.

26:54speaker 2So, I wouldn't say overall that uh that I probably ended up eating too much less, but it was a little different, rather than sitting down and mixing up a rehydratable pack and

27:04speaker 1Right.

27:04speaker 2soforth.

27:05speaker 1So, the total amount you don't think was any different because you're there, but it was just different kinds of food then.

27:10speaker 2It may have been a little less, but uh

27:13speaker 1Do you Do you personally feel, now you know the weight loss is involved here, you know, yours, you know that they uh you got 1 lb each here, and you got a uh a 10 lb one, and I heard your comment about the scale yesterday, too. But uh with Do you have any personal reason why you think there's that much difference in the weight loss? I mean, is there anything that you know that you personally tried to account for other than the than the food intake, water intake, or anything of that sort?

27:45speaker 2No, I sus- I'm not sure that there's anything magic about uh about the zero-g or the flight. I I would suspect I'd probably lost several pounds if I'd uh eaten that same uh same menu and sat right here. Uh I uh I probably think uh that I was uh 3 or 4 lb overweight when I went into the flight. Uh as a matter of fact, you know, I'm not a big eater, and uh during most of my during most of the time you come up on training, uh I drink a can of Sego and a can of V8 juice for breakfast, and then I'd eat a sandwich for lunch, and uh you know, maybe drink uh two or three cans of beer and eat a sandwich in the evening. And you know, I can

28:37speaker 1That's great. [laughter]

28:40speaker 2You you know, I can go for days on a menu like that. And I don't know how many calories all that adds up to, but uh, you know, it's it's not a really a uh a high-calorie uh uh diet. And I would say that that pretty much was my diet for 3 months prior to going into quarantine, was just about what I uh what I stated there. And then when we got into quarantine, well, then I started eating eating more for breakfast and eating a bigger meal in the evening. And uh so, I think I probably uh was 3 or 4 lb heavy going in going into the flight. And uh so, I uh I think uh the weight loss may be overplayed a little bit because I think I uh had a few extra pounds, and then plus, I don't think that uh maybe we picked the right uh the right way up on the on the rolling scales. But uh that's neither here nor there, you know.

29:39speaker 1Well, we can probably show you something about that from when we get your lab material pulled together. I think we'd be able to give you a better handle on that as to whether, you know, it really was something that had to do with the zero-g state or not. We hope we'll be able to do that. So, we'll we'll try.

29:55speaker 3Well, I can just add the general comment, which I think reflects the consensus here of the three of us, that

30:00speaker 1that with respect to the food in general, the type of food, the method by which it was packaged and so on, and uh and the degree to which we liked or disliked it was primarily a function of the uh level of activity in the flight plan. That the business of going into the pantry and taking time to select foods and drinks and so on is fine during the quiet periods of coast. That things like uh like spoon spoon packages are good if the level of activity is not too high, but certainly if the level of activity is high, the wet packs and the cans, and that's about all you want to take time to fool with. I think this is a general comment that really

30:41speaker 2Mhm.

30:41speaker 1reflects our consensus.

30:42speaker 2It was It was a time-consuming part of the day to prepare meals, uh get them all get them out of the the food box, get them all laid out, cut all the tops off of them, get all the water into them, get them massaged, and go about eating them.

30:56speaker 3Get the pail back in there when you're through and all. It It took a lot of It's an effort.

31:00speaker 2Right.

31:01speaker 3And uh you know, it's a lot easier to open up a can and a wet pack and then uh then you then you think it's a lot of trouble even to mix up the juice, but uh you know, that that in that way you got your meal and you're through and you're on your way.

31:13speaker 2Right.

31:15speaker 3Okay. The cooking problem, quotes, is uh is still a problem.

31:19speaker 2Still a problem.

31:20speaker 3Which has been fairly fairly common, I guess, as a

31:23speaker 1Yeah, I think I think if you got plenty of time, you don't mind spending an hour or so.

31:27speaker 2Matter of fact, it's a very pleasant hour.

31:29speaker 1Yeah.

31:29speaker 2It gets rid of that time very effectively.

31:32speaker 3But I but I would say in my case that watching these guys eat, you know, they they went right down the menu and uh so I thought uh you know, I uh I really I really should do that, but uh I just didn't have the inclination to eat that much. I'd uh you know, even though you know in your own mind, you know, hey, you ought to do this, you know, and uh you ought to keep yourself, you know, eat just as much as you possibly can. I just couldn't get around to doing it. In fact, several times I'd mix the food up, and then by the time I'd eat a couple of packages, you know, I just couldn't get to the to the third package, and so I'd put it back in the pantry.

32:07speaker 2Well, still, uh one of the things that's going to come out of that is somebody, you know, reading the the the uh debriefing itself, the obvious question comes up, okay, was your loss of your lack of appetite itself, was it just plain lack of appetite, or did you really have any any discomfort in your as far as the gut was concerned at all? Anything that that you felt was pathological in in uh your loss of appetite?

32:33speaker 1Due to the environment or anything?

32:34speaker 3No. No. I I don't think there's anything of that. I could say, I think uh it it boils down to a lot of just too much food. You know, if you you bundle up one of those meals, and uh there's just too much there to eat.

32:48speaker 2Were any of you ever thirsty in flight?

32:52speaker 3You were dry.

32:53speaker 2Did you feel thirst?

32:54speaker 3Yeah, I I You were dry uh quite a bit. You'd you'd have the sensation of dryness and you'd want and water, you know, or juice would make you

33:01speaker 2Want some water.

33:02speaker 3Yeah.

33:04speaker 2Did you, while we're at it, we might as wipe out the water in did you guys drink the water in your suits?

33:10speaker 1EVA?

33:11speaker 3I did, yeah.

33:12speaker 1Drank all of his. I just drank about a third of mine, I think.

33:15speaker 2About a third.

33:16speaker 3Well, the first one, I don't know how much of mine I drank. I thought I emptied the bag, but apparently uh the walls of the bag got around the drink tube, and I didn't get it all out because it drained down around my neck during the sleep period.

33:30speaker 2[laughter] Okay.

33:33speaker 3Okay.

33:34speaker 1I had a leaky one also, which I took out between EVAs.

33:39speaker 2Okay, did you fill them up again then when you went out second EVA?

33:41speaker 1Yeah.

33:42speaker 2And you drank about, you think you drank about a third of yours both times?

33:44speaker 1I'd say yeah. I didn't really stop to drink too much.

33:47speaker 2Yeah.

33:48speaker 3And I drank on mine the second EVA, uh and I can't remember whether I drank it all or not. If I didn't, there may be some still in it.

33:57speaker 2Okay.

33:58speaker 3All right.

33:59speaker 3Hey, one other comment on on while we're on that eating, uh before I forget it. Uh we ran completely out of these uh bite-sized uh packages, you know. And to me, that was the best the best thing we had, you these little, you know, turkey sandwiches, cheese sandwiches, and uh and that sort of thing. Because that was a no-sweat operation. You just clip that off and a can of juice, and you could go at it. So, I really liked those, and uh I ate all those generally that I could get my hands on. And uh we ran out of those.

34:31speaker 1Well, we ran out of most everything else, too. We just about ate

34:34speaker 3[laughter] No, not really. I had all kinds of food. Uh

34:40speaker 1If I may make a comment, if you don't mind, about about his uh eating and drinking habits. Uh this flight plan is is really something that he worked on, developed for the flight. It's It's a busy flight plan. It's a full one. And it was my impression that he was more interested in being sure that the flight plan was done properly than uh than eating.

35:01speaker 3Oh, yeah.

35:02speaker 1I think that affected it to a to a great degree, which again gets back to the level of activity versus the If you guys can get a little, for example, in those drink bags, get a little diaphragm on the end, just stick over a needle and pump the water in that way, and shake it up, pull the plug out, and drink out of the same deal, that would be a lot easier for those drinks.

35:23speaker 2Mean for the for the juices and things, you mean?

35:25speaker 1All cutting.

35:27speaker 2Yeah, so that you don't so you don't end up having to sort of feel you got to drink the whole damn thing once you get it done.

35:31speaker 1You see, you got a drink bag and you got a little narrow uh thing that's all sucked in, the plastic is all pulled down. Unless you cut it exactly right, first of all, you can't get it out of the nozzle without having it leak. When you get it all done, then you got to go cut the other end. And I was just thinking maybe it might be an easier way to put a diaphragm fitting on there that will you could stick over a hypodermic-type thing and get the water in that way. Might be a little bit quicker way to do it.

35:56speaker 2Okay.

35:57speaker 1Anything you do to make it easier is going to help increase the consumption.

36:00speaker 2All right.

36:00speaker 1Particularly during busy time periods.

36:02speaker 2Okay. But uh could we get you uh this is going to involve just really uh Al and and uh Ed. We we'd like to have you describe as well as as you can the things that you did with your uh with your bioinstrumentation harnesses when because it's very hard for us to be sure exactly what happened. We don't have that stuff back yet. We're going to set we've got a got to develop a plan to troubleshoot it. And as I under

36:30speaker 2the thing that happened with yours, Al, just from our point

36:32speaker 1You want the actions, not the words, huh?

36:34speaker 2Pardon?

36:34speaker 1You want the actions, not the words.

36:36speaker 2The actions, not the words, yeah. Okay. [laughter]

36:40speaker 1Well, you can say some of the words, too.

36:43speaker 2But what from our point of view what happened with your particular uh uh harness is everything was fine when everybody left the the the uh MSOB, okay? We got when you got into the spacecraft, right after you got apparently when you were getting cinched down somehow, uh because we had about three minutes or so after you were in the in the couch of good data on you, then we began to get erratic data. It began to wander, the baseline began to wander all over the place. Uh that continued to get worse and worse, and pretty soon it was going just full scale, which was totally unreadable. So, the question was, okay, had it was a question about hatch closure at that point in time. We uh decided

37:30speaker 2right right then, I said, "Well, hell, we're going to go we're going to go without that because I'm sure it's a sensor, and the only way to get at it anyway, if you we asked you then to try and press on those things. If that wouldn't do it, if that wouldn't re-seat it, uh then the the first opportunity would be when we got you active in flight." Now, we don't know why, but it came back. It was gone still uh when you went over Australia. As you came back up on the States, magically, there we had data. And we went back to the MSOB from the firing room to catch that pass, and there you were, web. It was beautiful, just as if nothing had ever happened. And you hadn't done a damn thing because then we asked them, you know, and anything. Now, uh as we understand, when you looked at that sensor then, that you did have some material had leaked out from under underneath it, and you and we understand that you replaced that you cleaned up and replaced that sensor. Is that right?

38:26speaker 1We didn't replace the sensor, no.

38:28speaker 2Okay, just

38:29speaker 1Cleaned it off, refilled it, put a new sticky back on it, and put it back on.

38:34speaker 2Yeah, okay.

38:35speaker 3That was the second day in of the flight, then.

38:37speaker 1Yeah, I think it was the second day.

38:38speaker 2Right. Yeah, there that was the first time that we really and that we asked you to do that then because we thought we'd get it out of the way before you got into the Okay.

38:46speaker 2And then you had another

38:48speaker 1I also changed the adapter, the CWG adapter, because at one time in the flight, they said my comm wasn't very good.

38:54speaker 2Yeah, your comm was terrible, right.

38:56speaker 1We had a spare adapter, and uh so we changed that.

38:59speaker 2Right.

38:59speaker 1Exactly when that was, I don't know, but

39:01speaker 2That was pretty early, too.

39:02speaker 1I think it was first day, probably.

39:04speaker 2Yeah, I think it was the first day.

39:06speaker 3Oh.

39:07speaker 2Is that Al, that was the lower

39:08speaker 1That wouldn't have anything to do with launch problem because, of course, we're using a different

39:11speaker 2No.

39:12speaker 2And we had a we had a uh respiration on you. You can see respiration, but we didn't have the

39:17speaker 1That's good.

39:18speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, but we didn't have the ECG. [laughter]

39:22speaker 1Very very reassuring to me.

39:24speaker 2That's right, good.

39:25speaker 3Hey, Al, can you correlate the reappearance of your EKG signal with any flight plan activity that you might have been doing at

39:31speaker 1I sure can't. I'm just as mystified about that as you are. I tried to press through the suit and everything.

39:35speaker 3Mhm.

39:35speaker 1You really can't feel anything through the suit.

39:37speaker 2Well, you were free then, though. You had your helmet and gloves off.

39:40speaker 3It was 1 hour and 30 minutes GET, Al. I don't know if that rings any bells to you.

39:45speaker 1Helmet and gloves are off at that time, and we're moving around with the post-insertion checklist, and some movement of the couch, so I dived in to get some things and pull them out, and still that sort of stuff.

39:56speaker 2It probably it's just got to be that you were probably just it was in the cinch

40:00speaker 1pushing down in the in the couch that it probably loosened that edge of that sensor somehow a little bit and uh I don't know why, but

40:08speaker 2Or put a crimp in a lead or

40:10speaker 1Yeah.

40:10speaker 2brought it to contact with something else.

40:12speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it sure came back fine after that. Okay, then the second time, what what else then did you have with with yours, Al, from your point? What else did you do to the thing then on

40:23speaker 3The other thing I noticed was about the next to the last day that the thread coupling between the sensor line, sensor harness, and the belt, the little transducer in the belt,

40:38speaker 1On top of the signal conditioners.

40:40speaker 3Yeah, that had uh stripped the threads. I could get it to hold a little bit and uh apparently the signal was fine, then it would slip off.

40:46speaker 2Well, it came back beautifully when you tightened it.

40:49speaker 3But then, when I unsuited at the end, I noticed that was loose, so

40:52speaker 1Okay.

40:53speaker 3the threads are apparently stripped on that. I didn't get it cranked down too hard.

40:57speaker 2Did did uh excuse me, did did you uh routinely uh disconnect that connector at the signal conditioner for sleep or for uh bowel movements or anything like that?

41:09speaker 3Not for sleep, for bowel movements and for swabbing down and cleaning up process, yeah.

41:14speaker 2Anytime anytime you pulled your clothes off, either change clothes or or uh put on the LCG or use the blue bags, what have you, we all undid those, I believe.

41:26speaker 3Right.

41:27speaker 1Okay.

41:27speaker 3Yeah, that's right.

41:29speaker 1And then, uh you didn't replace anything, you didn't do have to uh re-seat any sensor after that. That was the only other thing you had was the sensor.

41:37speaker 3That's the only time I took the sensor off.

41:39speaker 1Was that first

41:40speaker 3That call was correct because when we took it off, we could see the seepage of the electrolyte.

41:44speaker 1Right.

41:46speaker 3Same with the

41:48speaker 1Okay. How about yours then, Ed?

41:50speaker 2The only thing I replaced was that one sensor.

41:53speaker 1Which one was it?

41:54speaker 2And it was uh the same

41:55speaker 3Did you replace the whole sensor?

41:57speaker 2I don't mean replace the sensor, I mean we pulled it off, cleaned it out, refilled it with electrolyte, put it back on. It was the same

42:03speaker 1Just the same element.

42:04speaker 2with a new donut, new sticky donut.

42:06speaker 1Okay, you did not take the harness out of the kit and replace the whole harness.

42:10speaker 2No.

42:11speaker 1Okay, because that's we thought you had done that and uh

42:13speaker 2Well, you called and asked for that, but there wasn't time to do it, so we took

42:16speaker 3I'm glad you couldn't hear what we said when you when you guys said that.

42:20speaker 2We took the chance that the real problem was simply the sensor and the electrolyte, and that's what it was.

42:25speaker 1That's exactly what it was.

42:26speaker 3You couldn't have picked a worse time from the standpoint of timeline.

42:28speaker 1Is that right?

42:29speaker 3We were just getting ready to go into the LM, you know, and boy, everybody's all ass and elbows and suits and underwear and gear and books and everything all over the place.

42:38speaker 2And I I was sitting here half-dressed. I didn't want to go any further till we got a go on it, and we couldn't get the high bit rate up for you guys to look at it.

42:45speaker 1Right.

42:46speaker 2And so, there wasn't any time left, so we changed that one and went ahead and dressed.

42:50speaker 1I remember that.

42:51speaker 2Hey, you know when you came up there, though, that the the uh the data, you gave us about 2 minutes uh when the high gain did lock on, and we got 2 minutes of data, and it did still showed the uh the loose sensor. Now, what did you what did you do the second time? Uh did you uh You came up, asked us how the data looked, and we said it looked poor, yet we gave you a go on the suiting to to uh change out the harness.

43:14speaker 2I don't recall exactly the sequence of events. Uh

43:22speaker 2When when I called and asked for you to check it,

43:25speaker 1Yeah.

43:26speaker 2as far as I know, we did nothing after that except make sure everything was cinched down and went ahead and dressed.

43:32speaker 3Didn't didn't you do something with the with the fluid in there?

43:35speaker 2Yeah, but I had already done it at that point.

43:37speaker 3Oh, I see.

43:38speaker 2We did the I changed the electrolyte when I called and asked you guys to check it. Uh I did nothing after that except just make sure everything was secure.

43:49speaker 1Yeah, because you see, the first time you called, the data was poor, and that was the basis for the call to change out the whole harness because we said, "Well, if it wasn't that sensor, and we didn't have time to talk to you because LOS was coming up, so we said go ahead and change out the whole thing." But whatever you did, they subsequently corrected it because it came back beautifully, so we assumed you had changed out the whole harness.

44:07speaker 3We sprinkled a little holy water on it.

44:09speaker 1Yeah.

44:12speaker 2Speaking of, now that you mention it, you know, I just can't remember precisely when we changed it, but I'm but I'm thinking that it was already changed at that point.

44:22speaker 1Oh.

44:22speaker 2Okay.

44:24speaker 1And uh Ed, was this the lower sternum?

44:27speaker 2It was the lower sternum.

44:28speaker 1Same as Al's.

44:29speaker 2Same as Al's.

44:29speaker 3The only other change, it was electrolyte that was replaced.

44:32speaker 2Yeah, what I meant by taking it off, by changing, taking it off and cleaning it and putting a new

44:35speaker 1Putting it back, just sticking it back.

44:38speaker 1Okay.

44:39speaker 3And and you think you did that before LOS?

44:42speaker 2Yeah.

44:44speaker 3He probably did. What we're thinking now happened, probably took a while for it to seat properly, and uh when he came around, it was goey.

44:51speaker 1Go.

44:52speaker 1Well, his stayed stayed good then, and then we were having trouble with yours going in. You began to get this wandery baseline on yours again before the, you know, after we got into the LM, so there was a question in our minds about is there any way we could do to to to get that better, you know, to make that better? And we were trying to find trying to figure some way, could you reach around when you're in the suit, is there any way you could get at that thing if you took like after the EVA, if you ended up taking the helmet off, uh could you get down into the into the suit here through the neck?

45:24speaker 3You really have to have the upper torso garment, the upper part of the torso garment clear of the body in order to be able to feel that.

45:30speaker 1In order to feel.

45:31speaker 3There's no way you can definitely tell, even if the other guy goes through the back zipper and around in the front.

45:35speaker 1That we tried that on the ground to see if you could do that, and that's pretty hard to do, we found out.

45:41speaker 2The most you can do is press on it.

45:42speaker 3And after all that time in quarantine, that's pretty dangerous, too.

45:44speaker 1Yeah.

45:49speaker 1Depends on where his hand is at, okay.

45:53speaker 3Forget the EVA, just keep fooling with my sensor.

45:56speaker 1You've got 2 hours to start that, yeah.

46:05speaker 1Okay. Uh did uh The thing we got from the sleep, and I uh which I think is fairly well covered, if you have anything to add to that, we'll we'd like you to, but what we got out of it is that all of you pretty well never really had a a solid long sleep period, that it was broken, and that it was things like a couple of hours at a time or something. And I gather that the the reasons for that varied. You had uh some difficulty with with the uh wanting wanting to feel some pressure, in Ed's case, I know, and this Al mentioned this, too, and and uh Stu uh didn't like the couch, and and then you ended up uh in the LM, the the thing was being in the suits all the time, and then the tilt of the LM, too. Both those things probably had a lot to do with the sleep activity. Is there anything else that you can that you that you think you can add? Did you feel that you that you were rested enough to do the task, even with the sleep that you had?

47:05speaker 2Yeah, but I think we were working on reserves.

47:07speaker 1Yeah, I do, too.

47:09speaker 3Well, there were 2 days that we felt sloppy. One was the second day out after the after the excitement of the launch and all that activity and being coming becoming acclimated to the new environment. So, we felt like we weren't really clicking along too well on the second day out. And the day after TEI, although we all apparently slept better after TEI that night, I guess was probably the, in terms of continuous sleep, probably the best night we had.

47:38speaker 1Probably.

47:38speaker 3Still, the next day, we felt like we were not really organized. We were getting things done, but the little things were not being handled as neatly as we would like to have seen them. So, these are the only 2 days we felt that we weren't on top of the flight plan.

47:54speaker 2I think, Chuck, I feel that that for no longer than we work, for 9 days, that you can get along on a fairly small amount of sleep, and just your reserves and your discipline and everything else makes you do the job properly. But in my case, I felt very strongly that uh I was on reserves, that physically I was going downhill, and uh the

48:19speaker 2it was of some concern to me that I wasn't getting enough sleep. I knew I wasn't getting enough sleep, and yet I felt fairly wide awake and alert on most of the days, except the 2 days Al was talking about.

48:30speaker 2But sleeping to me was a very insecure experience.

48:35speaker 1Now, how do you mean insecure? You mean because of this wanting wanting something to press

48:38speaker 2I, yeah, wanting to feel like you, the best I can say, feel like you were in a bed.

48:43speaker 1Yeah.

48:44speaker 2Wanting to feel some pressure or or to be lying on something. It was a pleasant

48:48speaker 3Did you turn the tape recorder off?

48:53speaker 2I knew we'd get back to that.

48:57speaker 2It was really a pleasant experience to be in zero-g during the daytime, I thought. It wasn't quite so pleasant an experience at night.

49:05speaker 1Well, did you feel That brings up the scene. Did you feel, I gather from Al's comments in particular, uh this business of using your legs and your and your uh feet to try and hang on to something, which has been described by by other guys, too, at at some length. Uh did did you have the feeling that that was the cause of this muscle business in your back, more than because, you know, that's been described, and they've never been able to really put a hand on to why they felt they had that? They've had this sort of a feeling that if they could just stretch that real good, it'd be great. You think it is due to the fact that you had were trying to lock onto something?

49:41speaker 3Thank you, Chuck.

49:42speaker 3Yeah, so that's what I've analyzed it after the first couple days. I think we discussed it, as a matter of fact, and so we started to exercise and then deliberately take time out to relax, not only during the sleep period, but also try to adapt ourselves to a relaxed state during the awake periods in the seat.

50:00speaker 1It's uh on the optics or in the tunnel or something. And after the second day, it kind of went away.

50:05speaker 2Yeah, that that small of the back problem was gone after a couple of days. And uh in fact, I was kind of surprised at at that. Uh woke up that first morning, and my back had bothered me during the night. And uh I didn't realize that uh Al and Ed had a back was bothering them at that time, too, you know. And I says, "You know, I really didn't get that much sleep, but this sounds crazy as all hell because I can lay on that uh big fine king-size bed at the house, and if I get a lot of sleep, you know, if I lay there for say 10 or 11 hours, why uh the small of my back bothers me."

50:43speaker 1Sure.

50:44speaker 2And I and I said to these guys, I said, "Hey, this is crazy. I didn't sleep that much last night, but my back feels just like I'd got about 11 hours sleep." And they said, "Well, mine does, too." And then, you know, then we got to talking about it. And uh so but it was there, and it was very conscious to me that first night. In fact, I thought probably my back kept me from going to sleep as much as the new environment.

51:05speaker 1Yeah.

51:06speaker 2Uh rather than the zero-g, because I was always conscious of my back bothering me.

51:10speaker 1Did you ever think about taking aspirin or anything to do anything with that? Did you did you

51:14speaker 2I never take aspirin at all.

51:16speaker 1For the for the ache thing?

51:18speaker 3I think until the time we discussed it, I was convinced that the reason I was feeling bad in the back was just not urinating for so damn long during that whole

51:30speaker 1I wondered if you wouldn't think that. Yeah.

51:32speaker 3I did think that. And then after we started discussing it, I said, "Well, that may not be the problem, or if so, that's just part of the problem."

51:38speaker 1Everybody's got it.

51:40speaker 3Everybody's got it. And I agree with Al that it has something to do with the way you try to use your feet uh to to stabilize yourself. And I found, I believe, although I couldn't see myself, I believe that when I was relaxing in the spacecraft in zero-g, I was in a curved position. And it felt good then to throw the shoulders back and straighten out, or to take the exerciser and get some tension on those back muscles.

52:05speaker 1Well, you you tend to assume a sort of sort of like a fetal position. If you just totally relax, your legs will tend to to float up and come come up in a sort of a semi-seated position, and your hands would tend to float out about like this, and your back tends to bend some, so it tends to assume that kind of a position if you just let all your muscles go so you don't have any muscle pull at all.

52:26speaker 2Oh, I'll tell you, the one of the good things for that back, too, is just exactly that position. Just get yourself up like this. And and I know that first night, when my back was bothering me, I I tried to sleep a good bit. I'd reach down and grab a hold of my of my booties, and I would lay there like that with pulling some pressure on my legs, and it would and it would really help that that small of your back uh

52:50speaker 3I found both things, either straightening out to put some tension on the back muscles, or as Stu says, double on up and pull the other way.

52:58speaker 1Yeah.

52:59speaker 1Did How about when you got back onto the carrier now, and you got into a bed then for the first time back on on uh in a 1-g environment? Did you have any feeling Did you have the feeling that you were real heavy, that you were sinking into the bed? Did you have that when you were on a table or anything, on the X-ray table or anything of that sort?

53:17speaker 3No.

53:18speaker 1None of you experienced that.

53:21speaker 1How about weight of clothes? Did you have a feeling pants were too heavy, or they were falling, or anything like that when you first came back?

53:30speaker 2Only thing I can remember about laying down on the bunk was it was a it was a good relief to be able to lay on your on your stomach. You know, I generally I don't know which way I sleep most, back or stomach or what, but you know, you always had the impression, no matter in what position you are in the in the spacecraft, you're on your back. And uh so I remember thinking of that the first thing I laid down in the bunk was I stretched out on my back, and I thought, "Gee, I've been this way for nine days. I think I'll turn over."

53:59speaker 2So, I rolled over on my stomach. It felt pretty good.

54:05speaker 1Did did any of you have any dreams at all? Did you ever dream in flight at all?

54:09speaker 3I did, but I couldn't for the life of me recall.

54:12speaker 1Well, that doesn't matter.

54:13speaker 3Abstract matter.

54:14speaker 2Yeah, I had I had dreams.

54:15speaker 1But you did have dream activity at least in the in the zero-g state.

54:19speaker 2Yeah.

54:20speaker 1Good. Okay.

54:21speaker 1Yeah, I think of that heavy feeling, Chuck. Uh the only time I noticed it was after we had landed, we were still in the spacecraft. We unstrapped, and the spacecraft was bobbing around a little bit, but not too much. Got down on the LEB right away, and the first couple of steps, combination of the rocking of the spacecraft and uh being in 1-g again, for perhaps uh, I don't know, 30 seconds, no more than that, Stu.

54:46speaker 3That was my experience, too.

54:47speaker 1I started doing some deep knee bends right away for, I don't know, maybe 10, 12 of those babies, and uh and I was right back at home again and continued to feel that way. No muscle soreness, no feeling of heaviness or anything from there on out.

55:01speaker 1Did you This feeling that you experienced when you first went down the LEB, was that a was that all over, or was that just heaviness in the legs, or did you just feel heavy all over for for a few seconds?

55:09speaker 1Just felt heavy all over.

55:10speaker 1Just all over.

55:11speaker 1How about when you when you first got got some g on on reentry? Did did you have a sensation that you had a lot more g than than you really registering? Did you go through that?

55:21speaker 1I don't remember anything over 2-g. Was I supposed to?

55:27speaker 3These two guys were

55:29speaker 1You don't, huh?

55:32speaker 3like nobody else has done.

55:36speaker 2No, I think you become uh very sensitive to uh g, like uh even even ullage on uh in in the spacecraft, you know, or uh the uh well, that'd be the only time you'd really feel a g would be the ullage, as well as the SPS engine, of course, you know, it But on entry, certainly, you know, as you're going through 1-g, uh it certainly doesn't seem like 1-g. It it's you're you're sensitive to the g.

56:06speaker 3Since uh I wasn't quite as busy during that initial period as as they were, I didn't have tracking tasks to keep me occupied, uh I probably felt it more or was conscious of it more than they were. And it felt to me like one hell of a load. Uh in particular, my one task was to be watching the time. I couldn't get my arm up to see the watch until after peak g. At about 4 or 5-g, I could pull my arm up to take a look at it. Uh and I had the same sensation that Al did. Right after I got out of the couch, I felt very, very heavy. And then with just a little bit of motion, it seemed to go away. And I'd say it kind of described a very uh sharp rise, the return to normal was a very sharp rise and then an asymptotic to to 1-g, because I still stumbled a couple of times getting out of the helicopter. But I felt fine, except I just didn't have the sureness of footing that I would like to have had.

57:05speaker 1Well, that didn't last as far as footing, you know, that's a interesting thing that the Russians had after their their 18-day flight. They had some real marked mobility problems that lasted for days. And you didn't have uh we've never had anything of that. We've always had some initial footing problem, you know, just getting getting used to being back in a 1-g environment, and then you're on a ship, too, which is moving around, and uh uh just didn't last for any of you for longer than a few minutes really getting out of the helicopter.

57:36speaker 1I never felt lightheaded at all.

57:38speaker 3No, neither did I, lightheaded.

57:40speaker 1How about putting your feet in the right place? Did you feel like when you were walking that you were walking normally on the that your steps were normal and everything, that you didn't have to worry about where your feet were?

57:50speaker 3No, I I think that up to the point we got in the MQF, I felt that uh it took a little care to make sure my foot was going where it was supposed to be going, but it wasn't out of the ordinary, you know, really severe or anything. It seemed to be improving very rapidly from a very heavy state for the first 30 to 45 seconds after I got out of the couch to within an hour or so after I was in the MQF, the footing was very sure. But I do remember stumbling once going to into the MQF from the helicopter, uh and I didn't see anything to stumble over. It just I stumbled.

58:29speaker 2You know, I think, hell, you do that right now, though. If you're going to walk out of that door with a television camera on you, and you're going to walk up to the front steps, you'd be more conscious of your footing.

58:38speaker 1Exactly. You're conscious.

58:39speaker 2You'd be more conscious of your footing whether or not you'd been in zero-g or not.

58:42speaker 1Sure, if you're carrying a load, you're going to look very carefully where you're stepping. You don't want to get knocked down.

58:48speaker 2Yeah, and you and you in particular know that uh, you know, you've just come back from a flight, and uh people are going to be watching how you're walking and and all of this stuff. So, you know, it's in your mind, and you know, you've got to walk this 30 feet to the MQF, so you just naturally you're you're more conscious of where you're going to put your foot.

59:04speaker 3Well, I may have psyched myself into stumbling for that reason, but nevertheless, I did stumble.

59:09speaker 2In spite of the fact that I was conscious of the fact that the TV cameras were on.

59:15speaker 1Okay. Did uh did did you notice any distortion of of uh your facial features at all? Did you We when you look at the TV, the in-flight TV, as we watched you, you know, when inside the spacecraft, uh you get the impression that that your faces are not like they are now, that that they're much rounder, that that's a that's a thing that you see on the TV. Is that true? Is that Did you feel that when you were looking at each other?

59:44speaker 3No, but I I observed that when I saw a picture of us taken from that TV, and I didn't think anything about it until you mentioned it.

59:51speaker 1It looks quite You look quite round. You you look you look much different than you than you do now. It takes It's very rounded, and

60:00speaker 1But you weren't aware of that looking at each other.

60:02speaker 2You know, I, uh, Al Bean had made a comment of that in, uh, in the 12 report, that after they got into orbit, he looked around and, and everybody looked 20 lb heavier. And I remembered that. And, uh, I, I looked at these guys, you know, they, they looked just as bad then as, as they do now. [laughter] Uh, I, I had remembered that comment from, from Al Bean's report, and I really didn't notice it.

60:26speaker 1Yeah, they were, the 12 crew, I guess, been the one that was the most impressed with that of anybody, and they noted that they felt even that they, they had redness of the face for several hours after they first achieved orbit, but

60:37speaker 3Well, it's the, this general feeling of fullness, I guess, is, is, is there.

60:42speaker 2But I mean, just to look at a person and see his, see his face puffed up, I, I didn't notice that at all. Maybe it was just lack of observation. But, uh, I, I

60:51speaker 3I remember for the first 5 hours, we were too busy doing other things to observe that.

60:56speaker 1Did, did you have any sensation that in the first 24 hours in flight that you urinated more than you normally would, than you did the rest of the flight time?

61:09speaker 3I don't know.

61:10speaker 1That's a hard thing to remember, but do, do you have any idea that you did that at all?

61:14speaker 2I don't think those hours first at all. I never used my, uh, UCTA.

61:19speaker 3That first one was a whopper, I know that. [laughter]

61:23speaker 1Of course, you got a lot of excitement to make it a whopper anyway, so it's hard to

61:28speaker 1No, no real

61:30speaker 3No feeling one way or the other on that, as such.

61:33speaker 1Okay. Uh, was the, can you comment on the work that you did EVA out on the, on the lunar surface as far as, as what you, you felt based versus your ground training? Did you, do you think it was harder, easier, or about the same? And secondly, uh, as a second question to that, did you, did either of you feel really physically tired to, to the point that you knew that you were really tired during, during the EVAs, even going up Cone?

62:07speaker 3I felt, of course, it was a order of magnitude easier than 1G training. Just no comparison at all, as we expected it to be. Uh, and as far as, as being tired, I think I had already made up my mind that I did not want to sweat in, uh, on the moon. That I was going to keep the water up, and I was going to keep resting enough so that I didn't sweat, for consumables and for fatigue purposes. So, I never really felt tired. I did feel occasionally that I was approaching the point where I'd have to have more cooling or take a break. But it wasn't because of a tired feeling, it was the desire to program and plan consumables the way we wanted to.

62:52speaker 1And not, not be hot, uh-huh.

62:54speaker 3So, I, I felt in my mind that I was stopping short of the point of fatigue as a direct plan of, of not wanting to use up consumables.

63:04speaker 1How about you, Al?

63:06speaker 2Well, it's kind of hard to equate the pre-flight stuff with flight stuff. First place, you're not using the LCG in the pre-flight stuff, and you're lifting essentially 1G pieces of equipment around and so on. Uh, so it's pretty hard to equate the two, to my mind, as to whether it was harder or easier in flight from the standpoint of total work output. Uh, but certainly, standpoint of ease of mobility and so on, as Ed says, it's a lot easier to get around. I think you travel a lot faster, easier on the lunar surface, as a general comment, to start off. Uh, EVA 1, I did not feel uncomfortable at any time at all. Uh, EVA 2, I think the fact that I was aware of the workload was manifested primarily in the respiration rate, as opposed to anything else. I didn't feel as though, uh, uh, the body heat was was going up too much, the deep body heat was going up too much. I think this is primarily because of the circulating fluid in the LCG. And, uh, I was not aware of any profuse, profuse sweating. Just a little faint tinge of, uh, of sweating, a blush sweat, whatever you want to call it, was when I went to the medium flow on the water. So, I think, in question, not really aware of, uh, increase in heart rate either, unless you specifically stop and measure it somewhat.

64:30speaker 1Right.

64:31speaker 2So, I think, to me, the, the thing that was most obvious about, uh, the increased workload was the respiration rate. And at times, I think we suggested, climbing the steepest grade of the crater, that, of Cone, that we, we stop and take a rest. I think you all suggested that, as well.

64:46speaker 1Right.

64:47speaker 2Right.

64:48speaker 1Right.

64:49speaker 2But, uh, standpoint of being, uh, tired to the degree where I didn't want to press on after a short rest period, no, I didn't feel that at any time until after the two days was over, and we were back in the command module.

65:04speaker 1Sure.

65:05speaker 2I never really felt like I was behind, uh, the power curve as far as the total workload was concerned.

65:11speaker 1Well, we'll, we'll try and give you some firm feeling for what happened with your EVAs when we do this, uh, later. You know, we can show you actually what, what, you know, you did have some times where you both got heart rates that were up in the 150 area. You, uh, and this is why we felt, and your respiratory rates were very audible. And, uh, we didn't have a respiration trace on you at that time, as you know, but you, you did have very audible respiratory rates, and it was obvious that you were increasing those. And, uh, Al, I think you began to, to, to store, I think you, the thing is you kept yours on min for a long time, and, and then when you did turn up to, to medium flow, you just left it there a short period of time, and it didn't, it didn't kick your rate down as much because you still were maintaining some of that heat in there. Now, it wasn't enough to make you sweat, apparently. And then when you started doing that, turning it on a little bit longer each time, you just, it just settled right back down. You had no trouble with it at all. But both of you came down very well. When you would rest, your rates dropped down, and that's contrary to what happened on 12, where they didn't drop down when they rested. And yours, yours did very well. They just dropped, they'd come right on down as soon as you stopped doing that activity. So, that, that

66:27speaker 2That's run.

66:28speaker 1Do you have a feeling that you could have, uh, do you have a feeling, any recommendations about extending EVAs now? I mean, do you, do you feel that it would be possible with proper, proper consumables, of course, that, that you could, that it's physically possible to do that?

66:44speaker 3I sure do. I, the thing that bothered me was the worrying about consumables. I, knowing that we were getting a higher metabolic load, higher heart rate, more oxygen consumption going up Cone Crater, and that I was spending more time on, uh, between minimum and intermediate cooling, uh, because we were rushing, deliberately rushing to try to make up time, I started worrying about consumables. And, uh, especially in the water and the oxygen. And I, I felt that was a limiting factor. I didn't feel that I was a limiting factor. Yeah. Just the oxygen and the water I was consuming were, were bothering me.

67:23speaker 1Well, we tried to give you the word that, you know, that you were pretty fat on consumables really at the time. We thought you were trying to save consumables, also.

67:29speaker 3Yeah, we were. We were.

67:31speaker 1Yeah, and it, and, understandably so. And, so we wanted you to know that you, you had enough, and you could go to medium flow without really getting yourself in a hole, was the thing we wanted you to know.

67:41speaker 3And after you did that, I, I spent considerably more time on, uh, between minimum and intermediate cooling.

67:47speaker 1Yeah, you did. Yeah, right. So did Al. Yeah, you both did.

67:51speaker 3Incidentally,

67:52speaker 2I don't think, I think that, uh, the comment is, like the comment about total workload with respect to the, to the two-day period, I, I wouldn't want to see a crew ever plan to do any more than we did in those two days.

68:05speaker 1Amen.

68:06speaker 2As far as I'm concerned, that's about as heavy a workload as anybody ought to do. And certainly, if you're going to go out for longer periods of EVA, you ought to allow longer periods of rest in between.

68:15speaker 1Amen.

68:15speaker 3And make sure, somehow, that they get the rest. Just allowing the time doesn't necessarily assure rest.

68:21speaker 1Well, tell me, if you had, you know, in the, in the LM, I, I gather one of the things that you think would help, of course, would be getting out of the suit. That certainly would help if you could get out of the suit in the LM, no question about that. If you had something for sleep, would you take it? Would, would you guys have taken it in the LM if you had had something for sleep, do you think?

68:39speaker 2I don't think so, because we, I don't think, I don't know about Ed, but I certainly don't take that kind of medication here on the ground. I

68:46speaker 1It's an individual thing, quite obviously, and it, you know, it just depends on

68:49speaker 2But I think if things as closely in space as you can to the ground environment is probably the way everybody would want to go. So, if you have people that do that on the ground, probably would help them in the

69:00speaker 3I'd prefer to see us use a more natural means of getting to sleep, as opposed to an artificial means.

69:04speaker 2Like, test out the sleep-off place. [laughter]

69:08speaker 3Factor that in again.

69:09speaker 2I think the suit's the big thing, as far as I'm concerned.

69:11speaker 1Yeah.

69:12speaker 2It keeps coming up. You couldn't roll around, you know, even, you couldn't roll around in a hammock, and the damn neck ring was hitting the back of your neck, and, uh,

69:20speaker 1Yeah.

69:21speaker 2So,

69:22speaker 3There was one, one thing, Chuck, about the fatigue. The only thing that I felt fatigued, any muscles I felt fatigued, was the darn hand muscle on the right hand, because of the, uh, of that glove.

69:32speaker 1Because you were fighting that glove.

69:34speaker 3Yeah.

69:34speaker 1Yeah.

69:35speaker 3And working the core tubes, getting, unscrewing the core tubes. One of them I couldn't get by myself. Getting the caps off of them, uh, that was very fatiguing, and that arm gave out.

69:46speaker 1How about when you're carrying the barbell out there, and you're getting this thing? You said you had to do it like

69:49speaker 3Well, that was tiring, but just because it's so cumbersome, and it was flopping all around. But I eventually put it across my arms like that, and just aside from the, the workload

70:00speaker 1of carrying it out, it was no problem. It was heavy.

70:03speaker 2Was the weight diff- seem different because you commented at the time and it sounded and it looked like you were having trouble getting out there with that thing. Was it the weight of it or was it just the fact that it was vibrating, that it was sort of like a fish?

70:15speaker 1It was mostly the the vibration of it, just the flopping of it. However, uh

70:21speaker 1I think that it was heavier than I expected from the 1/6 G mock-up.

70:26speaker 2Uh-huh.

70:27speaker 1But the uh we had never carried it that far in in training, and I think we've made that recommendation that at least once the guys ought to carry it uh

70:36speaker 2The whole way.

70:37speaker 1the whole way. But it was primarily the flopping of those weights on the end that were giving me trouble.

70:43speaker 2Mm. Okay.

70:45speaker 2Let's get the uh I gather that on this bowel movement thing that uh the preps and so forth, you had good comment in there that that that went fairly well, and you all did the same thing we knew pre-flight anyway. Now, how did it work out though with the thing? Do you remember? Can you just

71:02speaker 2tell us each each one how you went? I gather Ed went almost to the end without having one, according to a comment.

71:08speaker 1Yeah.

71:09speaker 3Yeah, Ed almost didn't.

71:17speaker 1I went on the morning of the eighth day.

71:19speaker 2To the morning of the eighth day was the first one.

71:21speaker 1And uh

71:23speaker 2And that's the only one, I assume.

71:25speaker 1Yeah. I didn't plan it that way. What I wanted to do was to uh have one bowel movement before we went to the surface.

71:33speaker 2Yeah, I remember.

71:34speaker 1So that would take care of of that period of time. And uh I went around with a bag on my fanny for about 12 hours

71:43speaker 1hoping I could do something, and never did.

71:45speaker 2Mm-hmm.

71:46speaker 1And at one point, I even wished the heck we had a laxative board to uh help me do that.

71:53speaker 1I'm not sure whether that's a good idea or not, but it sure seemed like it at the time. And uh

71:59speaker 2So you could go.

72:01speaker 1I was really concerned that that I'd need to have a bowel movement while we were on the surface.

72:05speaker 2Yeah.

72:06speaker 1And uh I got through that period, figured, well, we got it made. Be good to get back to the command module and use the bag, and I still couldn't. It was till the eighth day.

72:18speaker 1And that was a whopper.

72:20speaker 2Did you ever get any cramps or anything with it, though? You never had any gut gut disturbance at all with it.

72:22speaker 1No, none.

72:25speaker 2Fine. Okay.

72:26speaker 1I wasn't uncomfortable. I didn't even have a feeling of fullness.

72:29speaker 2Good. How about you, Al? How how did your cycle go?

72:33speaker 3Well, I had one and a half bags uh on uh the third day, I believe it was.

72:41speaker 3And then another bag on about the uh seventh day.

72:46speaker 2Seventh day.

72:49speaker 2And no problems with it. They were normal consistency and so forth, as far as

72:53speaker 3Yeah, but that's really uncivilized.

72:56speaker 2That I agree with you.

72:58speaker 3We've got to modify that.

72:59speaker 2The high- the total hygiene thing in this thing is so archaic, it's unbelievable. We we just got to do better than that if we're going to keep people in space. That's all.

73:11speaker 3That's the only time I didn't feel civilized, you know? I really felt uncivilized during that whole process.

73:14speaker 2The whole mess, yeah, is a big mess.

73:17speaker 1And the ability to clean up afterwards, and in fact, there's the ability to maintain personal hygiene throughout the flight.

73:24speaker 2Okay.

73:25speaker 1We need better equipment.

73:27speaker 2Stu, how about you?

73:28speaker 4I went to uh 80 hours was the first one. I remember distinctly because I said between 80 and 81 hours approaching LOI, well, I'm going to do it.

73:36speaker 2And you did.

73:38speaker 4Which which pleasantly surprised me, too, while we're on the on the gory subject, because uh pre-flight, I anticipated uh that I might have to use the bag more than that because in my normal course of events, it's very common for me to hit the head hit the head at least twice a day.

73:55speaker 2Mm-hmm.

73:56speaker 4And uh but so I was pleasantly surprised that I got to 80 hours.

74:01speaker 4And then I had one other one, and it was uh was after TEI. I guess the next day after TEI, and I don't remember what time frame it was, or was it

74:14speaker 4Yeah, I guess it was. It was the day after TEI.

74:18speaker 4And uh

74:21speaker 4Okay, I don't remember the GET or anything on that. I can't even associate it with anything except these guys in their gas masks. I don't know what else was going on at that time.

74:29speaker 2Yeah.

74:30speaker 1These guys.

74:35speaker 2Okay.

74:37speaker 2Uh

74:40speaker 2When did you first start to use the nose drops? How far into the Do you remember what day?

74:45speaker 1Third day, wasn't it?

74:46speaker 3Three, I think, yeah.

74:48speaker 1Third day.

74:49speaker 2And do you feel that that was a I I'm a little bit confused about your your description. You're describing this fullness and still Do you feel that this was a thing that was associated with the this fullness that was due to to the weightlessness, or do you think it was an oxygen effect, just due to the drying and so forth and

75:09speaker 1I never felt that dry.

75:11speaker 1And I at the time, I thought it could have been either or both.

75:15speaker 1And so I just treated it symptomatically symptomatically with a couple of with about one drop in each nostril, and it was completely effective for the next 10, 12 hours.

75:24speaker 2Well, you could hear it. This is fairly routine. You hear this in the guys' voices, and you know they're doing it, you know? You hear this full feeling that they have. Sometimes they get a little bit of a hoarse sensation with it, too, and and it comes and goes. And uh you described it, I thought, very well yesterday, you know? Sometimes in the mornings, it'd be you'd wake up, it'd be better in the morning, and

75:46speaker 3You know, Chuck, I don't know. This is kind of a subjective feeling.

75:52speaker 3I kind of felt that maybe the whole uh whole head sensation was related to a readjustment of the cardiovascular system, and therefore, if you could relax a little bit in the evening, it ought to help it. This is my theory.

76:05speaker 2Yeah.

76:06speaker 3And I kind of wished it that way, you know? It's just a general feeling.

76:10speaker 3Nothing to substantiate it quantitatively.

76:13speaker 3And I think as far as the nose drops are concerned, it helped uh with the mucus, but it didn't help the overall fullness uh sensation.

76:20speaker 2But did they work all right? I know we got a special one with Stu here, but did they work all right? I mean, did the drops

76:26speaker 3Just like they should have, but I mean, it cleared out the it made it clear clear out the uh mucus temporarily, a few hours.

76:34speaker 2Yeah. Okay. And Stu, what about now? Did you just give yourself too big a slug? Is that what happened to it, or

76:39speaker 4I think I probably did, Chuck. I I'm sure that's what happened. You know, I uh decided, well, I hadn't used any up till then, but on entry, you know, I thought, well, I think I'll just use some of these beauties. And uh

76:51speaker 4I think I hit gave me too big a dose in the right nostril here because, boy, my eyes started watering, and I could feel it in my sinuses and everything else. And uh

77:01speaker 4then, but it lasted maybe an hour. And by the time, as I probably did that a couple of three hours prior to entry, and uh an hour later, you know, I I think most of the symptoms had gone away, either that or you're getting closer to entry and you stop worrying about it.

77:17speaker 4But uh yeah, I did. I I think I overdid it.

77:21speaker 4And uh I

77:24speaker 4I uh just, you know, I hardly ever take any nose drops or anything, and maybe I just got too much in there, and it's probably pretty powerful stuff.

77:31speaker 1It is powerful. I know if I, in 1 G or here, if I take more than a couple of drops of Afrin, if I use drops instead of spray, I get the same effect Stu did.

77:41speaker 2Yeah.

77:42speaker 1It's a burning and a real drying sensation.

77:44speaker 4And and it wasn't a lack of briefing or not trying it before flight or anything like that. I think I was just a little overzealous in the in the application.

77:52speaker 3Well, you know, two drops are good, give him four.

77:54speaker 4Yeah, you know, what the hell.

77:56speaker 2Did you did you feel uh you got anything uh did you get a tachycardia with that? Did you get any real increase in heart rate with that?

78:02speaker 4Oh, I don't have the foggiest idea.

78:04speaker 2You didn't you didn't feel it anyway, yeah.

78:06speaker 4I I

78:07speaker 3It pumped a lot more adrenaline when he got mad at us for suggesting that he use the gun.

78:16speaker 4Yeah, I always stood off of the suggestions.

78:20speaker 2Did uh did any of you all had some some evidence in in your ears on on uh after on the first exam when Bill saw you of having some some uh bubbles uh in there, and did you have any sensation during reentry that you were having trouble clearing your ears, any of you?

78:38speaker 2No sensation.

78:39speaker 1Quite surprising to me. I was looking for it, and surprisingly, I had no problems at all.

78:43speaker 3Not a bit.

78:44speaker 4I could feel the pressure change uh but uh

78:48speaker 4and I could hear them pop. But, you know, I could do I did that, too, on my uh suit integrity check. I uh I could feel the pressure.

78:54speaker 2Yeah.

78:55speaker 4You know, and you just sort of pop it. And let me comment before I forget about this voice sounding full. You know, I noticed that that you'll do that a lot if you've I think maybe it's because the atmosphere is dry, but if you're doing a lot of talking,

79:09speaker 4and then you come on, and I would notice myself sounding sounding full, and I'd say, gee, I'm I'm sounding like that, and and my head wasn't uh consciously full at all. It but I could tell in my voice that I was sounding

79:21speaker 2Hearing it in your voice.

79:23speaker 4uh if you've been doing a lot of talking.

79:25speaker 2Right.

79:27speaker 2Well, that's true. If you do, you know, like if you end up just talking on and on, like if you end up here like in the session yesterday where you talked a lot during the day, you may even have had that. That kind of thing, if you just talk a lot during the day, you'll you'll even have it.

79:40speaker 3We don't have too much else to do in here, Charles.

79:42speaker 2Yeah, I know.

79:44speaker 3Go back to that.

79:45speaker 1Hey, Chuck, comment on those Afrin

79:50speaker 2We're we're looking for somebody cut a glove. Who is it?

79:52speaker 1I think I'm going to have to.

79:55speaker 1Comment on the Afrin bottles. They uh

79:58speaker 1the pressure gets to them

80:00speaker 1They separate into a jillion bubbles, and that emulsion is heard bubbling, filled with air. As soon as you take the cap off, it comes out, starts leaking.

80:09speaker 2It's a little ology in the bottle.

80:11speaker 1Yeah.

80:12speaker 3Okay.

80:13speaker 1And it's it's kind of difficult to control that stuff when you use it.

80:18speaker 2That was the first time you opened the bottle, right?

80:20speaker 1Always, always.

80:22speaker 2Every time you open it.

80:23speaker 1Yeah.

80:24speaker 3Okay, Chris, what technique did you use for applying those drops? How did you put them in?

80:34speaker 1Very gentle squeeze, trying to get just one drop at a time out.

80:38speaker 3Just put the dropper up, let it go.

80:41speaker 2Put it in there and hosed it.

80:45speaker 1Just like we told him to.

80:49speaker 2Good boy, Red.

80:56speaker 3Uh, what what did you take those, uh, PRDs down in your in your suits?

81:02speaker 2Tape them? You'll never believe it, Charles. We had zipper pockets.

81:06speaker 3You're kidding.

81:07speaker 2No.

81:08speaker 3It's unbelievable.

81:09speaker 2They were there.

81:10speaker 1We pulled out those coveralls and there were zippers on them.

81:14speaker 2First time we'd seen zippers in the whole training cycle.

81:17speaker 3I'll be darned.

81:18speaker 1Well, they're not in the training suits. They're just on the flight suits.

81:21speaker 3Okay. Well, how about that? Okay. Well, now.

81:26speaker 2Apparently, we had we had requested it way, way back and forgotten about that we made the official request, and it was already in the mail, and nobody knew about it, and none of the training devices were that way, but lo and behold, out of the package they came with all the zippers.

81:38speaker 1There they all were.

81:39speaker 3Well, that's great.

81:41speaker 1Those they were great, too.

81:43speaker 3Okay. Uh,

81:57speaker 3Well, I don't understand what that is.

82:00speaker 2Well, uh, when you remove your, uh, PGAs, Al, is there a point in the checklist where we should, uh, include the removal of the PRDs back into your flight coveralls or or is that not there? Or what?

82:13speaker 1It already says take all the items out of your

82:15speaker 2Oh, it does? Okay.

82:16speaker 1Yeah, so if that happens to be one that's by itself, I see. and you forget that extra pocket's there, you'll forget it.

82:22speaker 2Well, now, it's it's listed in there, uh, uh, when we take the suits off the first day. I I guess

82:31speaker 2and then, you know, when you bring the suits back over, uh, from the LM, why, you know, you're pretty rushed timeline. That, you wouldn't, I don't know whether it'd be any good to put that in your timeline book or not, because that time your main purpose is just get the suits and get get them stowed.

82:46speaker 3Yeah, you said you'd jerk them down and got them zipped up in those bags pretty fast.

82:49speaker 2Right into the right into the bag.

82:53speaker 3Okay.

82:55speaker 1Probably wouldn't hurt, I guess, when we list the items to take out of the suits when we come back to the LM, we can just add PRDs in there as another item. We list sunglasses and pencils and all the rest of that stuff, we can put PRDs.

83:07speaker 2That's a good idea.

83:08speaker 3And that, on the sunglasses, reminds me. Uh, when did you when you said you used sunglasses, you're the only one who did use some sunglasses. Is that right?

83:16speaker 2Corrective lenses.

83:17speaker 1I used prescription corrective lenses.

83:19speaker 3Oh, okay. When when did you use the the corrective lenses?

83:22speaker 1Couple times when I had to read small print in the in the flight plan.

83:26speaker 3And just in in the in the command module deal.

83:30speaker 1Yeah, with the helmet off all the time. I didn't use them with the helmet on.

83:32speaker 3No, I know.

83:34speaker 2I'd use them from time to time in the simulator, particularly in the LMS, any time when I can't adapt to the low light levels.

83:40speaker 3Yeah. Did you have any did you have any feeling about that on the lunar surface, Al, that the low that the light levels were were bothersome to you because of that? Because that is a very typical thing. That's a that's an interesting

83:53speaker 2The light levels were generally higher in the, uh, in the lunar module. The thing they don't simulate on the LMS is the difference between day and night on the surface of the moon. The LMS is dark all the time for all practical purposes.

84:08speaker 3How about out on the surface, when you were actually out on the surface and and had your visor down?

84:12speaker 2Yeah.

84:13speaker 3Did did did those light levels bother you at all? I mean, did you feel that that you were having any any difficulties seeing out?

84:21speaker 2Any problems I have is with reading small print at close distances when the light level is low, and I had to problem in the LMS couple times in the CMS, and the LMS, I think, I don't know how many times I've broken them out, I don't know, perhaps six or eight times, but I tried to read that data card, which is about the only time I've ever seen you use them.

84:41speaker 1Yeah, on the surface, Chuck, it's either stark white, I mean, dazzling white, or it's absolutely black.

84:46speaker 3Or it's black.

84:47speaker 1I don't think eyesight has a great deal to do with it at that point.

84:50speaker 2Yeah, that's right.

84:52speaker 3I think you've covered most of that stuff about the vision on the surface and so forth pretty well in there. I think you've done that very well in the in the things, so I don't think we need to, if we have something that comes back up for that, well, we'll get the word to you, but as far as I can tell from getting through all that so far, I think we've got mostly that covered.

85:10speaker 1You know, I might point out to you, if you want to pursue the the visibility further for any sort of medical things, if you look at the photographs, in my opinion, they're exactly what we saw.

85:19speaker 3Is that right?

85:20speaker 1If you look cross-sun, the visibility is great. If you look up-sun, everything's glared out by the sun. If you look down-sun, all of the gentle, subtle rolling in the, uh, subdued craters, they just disappear on you.

85:34speaker 3Yeah.

85:35speaker 1But cross-sun visibility is great, and the photographs show it the same way.

85:39speaker 2You know, just real briefly on that same subject, Al, it's kind of hard to tell when you're looking at just negatives of these 70 mm, but I was looking at some of the zero phase pictures last night and how the targets would disappear at zero phase. It does it on the on the films, uh, also, and

85:55speaker 3Same way.

85:56speaker 2as it turned out, I'll have to get, you know, see what the prints look like, but my first impression is that I didn't see much more than what the camera did at zero phase, which, uh, is going to surprise me, because I would have thought differently.

86:08speaker 3Yeah.

86:09speaker 2But that, I don't take that as any sort of data until I've had a chance to really see a a blown-up print, you know. I'm just looking at some negatives in here. But that's my first impression.

86:19speaker 1We've always said that, uh, the eyeball can see more than the film can, but with our particular film, I think they're pretty good correspondence.

86:27speaker 3Probably going to be about the same. That's great.

86:30speaker 2You insinuating we have bad eyeballs?

86:33speaker 1No, we just have good film.

86:36speaker 2That's a preliminary opinion.

86:38speaker 3Hey, on the sunglasses, I guess you got it, uh, as far as I know, nobody even broke their sunglasses out, right?

86:44speaker 2Right.

86:45speaker 3And you didn't feel you needed them.

86:46speaker 2No.

86:47speaker 3Great.

86:48speaker 1Well, I think the only time we needed them was when there was sun shafting in, but in PTC, just wait a couple of minutes, it'll be gone.

86:55speaker 3Goes away. Okay. Uh, Ed, there was a time at 196 hours where we lost your, uh, your respiratory, your CPM. Did you notice, was the was the was the signal conditioner disconnected then, or was there a sensor loose or anything, do you know?

87:13speaker 1No, there was nothing different. It just quit, apparently.

87:15speaker 3It just quit. And you couldn't see anything obvious as as to why.

87:19speaker 1No, I went down and went over the whole system, checked the sensors, checked the, uh, the belt, uh, checked the connection, and we were getting too close to entry to really do a whole great deal of troubleshooting.

87:31speaker 3No, there was no no point to do it then, and okay, fine. Well, we're going to check those. We've never had a signal conditioner as such fail, and that's one of the things that's sort of interesting if it if it wasn't a sensor problem. We want to be sure and check those signal conditioners out.

87:47speaker 3Okay, uh, I think we've got most of this mobility, uh, thing done in there.

87:54speaker 2While we're talking about that bio-belt, let me just say that I think my urine pack problem, the UCTA problem, is kind of related to that belt in that, you know, the UCTA is held by that elastic strap.

88:06speaker 3Right.

88:07speaker 2And I think the problem in getting that hose length correct has to do with the fact that the UCTA doesn't always end up in the same place. Uh, you try to get it below the belt so that it doesn't get on top of it and increase the dimension of what you've already got on. And I think in doing that, I probably wore it a little more, you know, wore the gun down on the hip more, maybe.

88:28speaker 3Yeah.

88:29speaker 2In retrospect, if there's some way that thing could be fixed,

88:33speaker 3In place.

88:34speaker 2then it wouldn't move up and down, and therefore, you could adjust the hose length, uh, a little better.

88:43speaker 1It's, I wore I wore mine differently. I wore mine over the bio-belt. That may be the difference.

88:48speaker 2Yeah. Well, I think it's a question of fixing the, uh, the vertical height of that thing so you can get the right length on the hose, because mine was up and down. I think when you reached in, you probably found it was

88:59speaker 3Yeah.

89:00speaker 2sagging down as a result of being full of fluid on the one hand, but also because I used to wear it below the the belt on the other.

89:06speaker 3Yeah.

89:07speaker 1But his hose had a definite kink in it. It came out of the fitting and just made a sharp kink, and it was bent, just like you'd kink, just like you'd see a hose.

89:15speaker 3Yeah.

89:19speaker 3Very good. Did you have did you feel any, uh, real dryness of of skin as such, or dryness of your lips, or or your nose at all? Did you ever have any sensation that way during

89:31speaker 1Not exceptionally, for me.

89:34speaker 2I sure didn't have any obvious sensation of dryness.

89:36speaker 1I noticed, I don't know whether Stu did, I noticed his lips were cracking about the fourth or fifth day after we got back from TEI.

89:43speaker 2But I don't know if he did anything about it.

89:45speaker 2No, I I didn't feel, uh, dry. In fact, I noticed, uh, a cracking in here, too, uh,

89:52speaker 2but, uh, no, uh, I didn't I didn't feel any dryness particularly at all.

90:00speaker 1Okay.

90:01speaker 2I'll go get these other ones ready.

90:03speaker 1Uh, did they talk to you about the, Phil Chapman wanted to, to tack on the light flash thing on, on the end of this thing here? So, uh, if, once you tell him to come on in and, and, uh, let him get that out of the way then.

90:19speaker 3Hey, Chuck, just real fast, um, I know, uh, you, you've got to take the data and, and you're looking ahead to the longer flights, and, uh, I'm not trying to downplay it, but this weight loss, you know, I think in my case, uh, I don't want it to be misconstrued, you know. I was just sitting here thinking, you know, I weighed less after our field trip to, to Iceland than, than I did after this flight, too, you know. A weight loss of me of, uh, of 5 lb is, is no, just, you know, comes and goes, uh, with no problem at all.

90:51speaker 1Well, that's why the body water things are going to be pretty important, you know, to know, is that really it, you know, is, is it really a total body water loss, primarily? That'll, that'll be the, the important plug to hang on there. That's why we'll go over that with you so that it is, it is clear.

91:07speaker 3Mhm.

91:08speaker 2We won't have total body water or cell, or extracellular fluid space till after 14 days, and that will be done in beta.

91:15speaker 1Those are, um, those are beta emitters. We're just doing the gamma counting here.

91:22speaker 2Why can't we get it out? Oh, we'll argue that with you later.

91:25speaker 1We're just not, we're just not, uh, equipped.

91:29speaker 2Let's get it out.

91:31speaker 1I'll talk with you later, buddy.

91:34speaker 2There is a scientist, let's go.

91:39speaker 1Where's Phil?

91:41speaker 2Oh, there.

91:45speaker 1Yeah, there he is, Phil. Come on in.

91:47speaker 2Hey, y'all want any coffee? I got a big pot right here.

91:49speaker 1Yeah, I'm coming over to get some right now. Oh, you got it.

91:53speaker 2Let me make it.

91:54speaker 1Um, Dick suggested that, that, that we should tack on a few questions about light flashes at the end of this briefing, and that's what we're about to do. What we'd, uh, like to do is to clarify some of the subjective impressions that you've got of what you saw in the way of light, light flashes, and also to, to clarify the, the conditions under which you saw them.

92:18speaker 2Uh, excuse me, could you stand back from the mic just a little bit? That's a boom mic, and that'll, that'll pick you up.

92:22speaker 1Phil, why don't you sit right here? It, it'll pick you up.

92:24speaker 2Okay, we don't want to blast us out.

92:28speaker 1Let's go.

92:31speaker 2You need to get really close to the mic, though. You should be right in front of it.

92:35speaker 1Is there a way that this room could be darkened?

92:38speaker 2That the room could be darkened?

92:39speaker 1Yes.

92:41speaker 2In a while.

92:43speaker 1In a while? Okay.

92:46speaker 2Tell him, hey, first question we got is, um, the streaks that you saw, were they a very sharp phenomenon, or were they rather diffuse, like fuzzy?

92:57speaker 1What I saw were very sharp. There was no mistaking what it was. It was a streak, so long, instantaneously was there.

93:07speaker 3Yeah, I think that's correct. Uh, both, uh, the single streak and the double shot, uh, appeared to be very clear to me.

93:15speaker 2They, they were quite clear, and, uh, as I think I made the comment over the loop, that most of my streaks appeared to be on the periphery, and, uh, for the first several days, I got the impression of, of, of that this, this direction was predominant. Later on, it appeared that, uh, I don't think I could get that, that good a, a pattern, but that was my first impression for the first couple of days.

93:41speaker 1The, uh, next question is, uh, was there any apparent direction of propagation? And could you tell it was coming from one side to the other, or was it just a, a flash?

93:51speaker 2Some of them, you could say from the left to the right, or something like that.

93:55speaker 1Tried to correlate it, but, uh, in my case, I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it.

94:01speaker 3Yeah, I would think that the time period in which we tried to, uh, report them streak by streak, flash by flash, was representative. And, uh, it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period, and, uh, therefore, generally random throughout the time that we were noticing them.

94:19speaker 1No, I meant, um, could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other, in general? That was, it was moving in a specific...

94:26speaker 3A specific, oh, a specific, a specific flash, yes.

94:29speaker 1Yes.

94:30speaker 2But, you, you could see it as a travel from one side to the other?

94:32speaker 3Yes.

94:33speaker 1You really could try to report it that way, didn't you?

94:34speaker 3Yes, we did report them.

94:35speaker 1That's, that's the way it, puzzling us, because it happens, it has to be very fast, you know.

94:39speaker 3Isn't that question kind of redundant, then?

94:41speaker 1We believe you.

94:48speaker 1Was there some character to these flashes that had some, some aspect of direction? I mean, were they all the same rod-shaped, or were they, did they have a tail on them?

95:00speaker 3Well, what I saw, what I reported as a streak, was simply that. Uh, now, maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction, leaving a tail. But, I don't, I can't say that for sure. All I reported was a streak, and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other. And, I reported that direction, and I, I can't clarify it much more than that.

95:28speaker 1Did you want to, we may as well ask you the question, we've just doused the lights, I think they can see this in the dark room, let's just try it. The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw, or similar to it.

95:40speaker 3I think you need to light that up, though.

95:42speaker 1Well, can you see anything?

95:44speaker 3Yeah, except, that's what it looked like, except it was traveling. In other words, uh, it started out, and it definitely progressed across the field of view.

95:53speaker 1Direction of motion per individual streak, then.

95:56speaker 3Wasn't that bright.

95:58speaker 1Yeah, except you're not traveling. It was traveling.

96:01speaker 2You saw it as a point that made a streak.

96:04speaker 3I never did see two simultaneously, either.

96:07speaker 1Neither do I.

96:08speaker 3Now, you have two streaks on that. I never saw that.

96:13speaker 1The, uh, at one time, you said you saw a semicolon-shaped thing.

96:18speaker 3Saw a what?

96:19speaker 1A semicolon