Apollo 14 Debriefing (Continued), 1971
NASA-UAP-D027 · NASA · Feb 18, 1971 · audio · 32:05 · Release 4
What the war.gov catalog says
This file contains segment 2 of 2 of the Apollo 14 post-mission crew debriefing at the Manned Spacecraft Center (now Johnson Space Center), Houston, Texas. In this continued segment, crew members and debriefers further discuss the “light flash phenomena,” a then novel, now well-documented biological effect where high-energy cosmic rays pass through the eye and strike the retina, causing the perception of light streaks or flashes.
Transcript
speaker 1But my streaks appeared to be on the periphery and uh for the first several days I got the impression of of this this direction was predominant. Later on, it appeared that I don't think I could get that that good of a pattern, but that was my first impression for the first couple of days.
speaker 2The uh next question is, was there any apparent direction of propagation? Like, could you tell it was coming from one side to the other, or was it just a flash? Some of us did say from the left to the right or something like that.
speaker 3Tried to correlate it, but uh in my case, I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it.
speaker 1Yeah, I would think that the time period in which we tried to uh report them streak by streak, flash by flash, was representative. And uh it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period and uh therefore generally random throughout the time that we were in orbit.
speaker 2No, I meant um could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other in general? It was it was moving in a
speaker 1A specific Oh, a specific a specific flash, yes. Yes.
speaker 3But you could see it as a travel from one side to the other. Yes.
speaker 1You really tried to report it that way, didn't you? Yes, you did report them. That's the way it was. That's only because it happens It has to be very fast, you know.
speaker 1And that question kind of redundant then?
speaker 2Was there some character to these flashes that had some some aspect of direction? I mean, were they all the same rod-shaped or were they did they have a tail on them?
speaker 3Well, what I saw, what I reported as a streak was simply that. Uh now, maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail. But I don't I can't say that for sure. All I reported was a streak, and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other. And I reported that direction, and I I can't clarify it much more than that.
speaker 2Did you want to, while you're asking the question, if we just douse the lights, I think they can see this in the darkness. Let's just try. The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it.
speaker 3I think you need the light tapped in, though.
speaker 2Well, can you see anything?
speaker 3Yeah, except that's what it looked like, except it was traveling. In other words, uh it started out and it definitely progressed across the field of view.
speaker 1Direction of motion per individual streak.
speaker 2Was it that bright?
speaker 3Yeah, except you're not traveling. It was traveling.
speaker 1You saw it as a point, and then it became a streak. I never did see two simultaneously, either.
speaker 3Neither did I.
speaker 1Now, you have two streaks on that, and I never saw that.
speaker 2The uh at one time, you said you saw a semicolon-shaped thing.
speaker 3Saw what?
speaker 2A semicolon-shaped object. This was in the first first report. Be- before the the
speaker 1I never did.
speaker 3I don't If I reported it, that's what I saw, but I don't remember it.
speaker 2Did you see anything that looked like this?
speaker 3All I can say is whatever was reported is what I saw, but [laughter]
speaker 1No, I, you know, we we discussed the various shapes uh prior to flight, and uh I concentrated pretty hard on trying to trying to see the shapes, and I think as I reported, uh no, there it was either a streak, and just a rather simple streak, or it was a a flash, and rather a simple flash, uh nothing too exotic about it. And on a more rare one would be maybe just a a a pinpoint of light, for instance, rather than than get the idea of a of a flash. So, it would just be a pinpoint for a second, and it would be gone, but that was that was more rare than the other two.
speaker 2By by flash, you mean a distributed sort of thing?
speaker 1Yeah, I mean, you know, like like watching a uh an explosion, you know, just a a ball, uh versus just a a steady dot, yes.
speaker 2Was it was it like this at all? Can you see that?
speaker 3No.
speaker 2Can you see this one?
speaker 3That's small. That's more like it.
speaker 3Can't see it.
speaker 2We're not getting any lighting. I don't think it's lighting.
speaker 1Oh, there there was something just as you turned it there.
speaker 3Okay, can see that.
speaker 1These multiple uh Well, this one.
speaker 1Okay, that, that to me would be the pinpoint that, that I'm describing. The, the eruption or the, the novas, as we called them, would be more of an explosion.
speaker 3Yeah.
speaker 2How about this?
speaker 1Yeah. Yeah.
speaker 2Are there more dots on that?
speaker 1Well, you've got a very, very bright center and a diffused edge. I would say that uh the impression I had was you would have a an area like that indicating a blow-up, but the center wasn't predominantly that bright.
speaker 1But that, that's getting closer to what we would call, or what I would refer to as a nova or a, or a flash.
speaker 3That's not as bright as what I called a nova, yeah.
speaker 2And was your nova um a big explosion like this, or a discrete, bright flash?
speaker 3No, it was uh what I called a nova was was more of a a blob that seemed to start with that and kind of expand.
speaker 1More diffused.
speaker 3Yeah, more diffused as as the time went on.
speaker 2But brighter than that.
speaker 3Brighter than that, yes. That's what I'm about what I'd call a flash or a star.
speaker 1Uh here, here again, you've got too much contrast between the center and the uh diffused area there, though.
speaker 3That's why I liked it.
speaker 3Also, your time frame that you're flashing, that's too long. It was faster than that.
speaker 2But, am I right then, from what you just said, that that when you said flash, you really meant a star and not a, not a, not what you just described?
speaker 3I think I almost tended to use flash and star interchangeably.
speaker 2But that's not true for you.
speaker 1No, uh when I flash, nova to me were essentially the same thing. The only distinction I make is the the pinpoint versus an explosion.
speaker 2Uh-huh.
speaker 3Okay, I think what Stu was calling a, a pinpoint was about what I'd call a star or flash. And a nova, to me, was a much bigger, brighter thing.
speaker 2Okay, I got a couple of quick ones. First of all, the cabin lighting, uh exactly was it completely dark, or were there some instrument lights uh still on?
speaker 3Absolutely dark.
speaker 1Absolutely dark.
speaker 3Wait a minute, now. Well, yeah, there is
speaker 1You're talking about the time period that we ran this uh quantitative report, right?
speaker 2Right, right.
speaker 1So, completely dark.
speaker 2Okay. And uh did you have your eyes closed most of the time, or were they open in the dark cabin?
speaker 3Mine were closed.
speaker 1We had both.
speaker 3I had both.
speaker 1Even though we had the window shades on, when we roll around so the sun would hit some of the windows, there'd be some light seepage around. We were aware of that ahead of time, so during that time period, we, at least I, made an attempt to close my eyes, closed. Open otherwise, and of course, we closed our eyes when Ed flipped his flashlight on.
speaker 3But generally speaking, eyes were open.
speaker 2Right.
speaker 1No, mine mine was uh almost closed all the time. I was floating down the corner of the LEB, but I just I kept my eyes closed because uh I didn't know when uh we might roll into the sun, and I didn't want to pick up any light at all.
speaker 2Okay, the next question on the flashlight was uh when you shined it in your eyes, what was the approximate duration in each eye? About how many seconds?
speaker 3Well, I just kind of moved it across for 0.4, 5 seconds or so. 5 or 6 seconds. It hurt. It was very bright.
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 2And uh next question on uh still your orientation in the LEB, uh you said you were looking sort of toward plus X. Is uh were you across
speaker 1I was uh generally, you know how you you have the three couches, and uh plus X is up. I was oriented this way with my head looking face up uh down in this corner.
speaker 2So, your head was in the same direction as it would be if you were on the couch, just rotated 90 degrees.
speaker 1Yes, that's it.
speaker 2Okay.
speaker 2And uh next question is uh in almost every case, you did report that it was in one eye or the other. I believe there's one instance where you had uh both eyes. And my question is uh, and it may be somewhat redundant, but uh were you absolutely certain that you could distinguish that it was one eye as opposed to uh
speaker 3Yeah, I felt I was getting more in the left than the right, for some reason.
speaker 2But, in fact, in fact, you're all heavily biased towards the right on the on the on your on your reports.
speaker 3Really?
speaker 2Very heavily. Like, like four to one.
speaker 3Yeah, I would have sworn that I was biased to the left.
speaker 2You you had 12 12 right and 6 left, and, Al, you had 10 right and 4 left, and uh of the ones you reported, Stu, you had 6 right and 2 left, and the the rest were either no reports or of both eyes. It was all very heavily biased to the right eye.
speaker 3That's very surprising.
speaker 2No, well, still.
speaker 1Well, while we're talking about that, I it seems to me that uh I would get a flash or a streak or whatever the phenomenon, whatever the shape was, simultaneous with somebody else reporting.
speaker 2That's exactly the next question. We uh uh there were three, from listening to the tapes, three events, and it it occurred in in cases where uh different pairs were involved, uh which were coincidences where, and I think in one case, uh uh Ed, you said uh flash, and then, Al, you said simultaneous with him, I had a flash in the whole right eye. Now, my question would be, uh when
speaker 1When it was simultaneous, was it after he began speaking or was it, in fact, uh, was his words good enough for you to to have been a mark on your flash?
speaker 2Well, certainly within a fraction of a second, I think it was simultaneous.
speaker 3Yeah, the couple of times it happened to me, it was his mark, or whoever's mark it was, was good enough.
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 3Same here.
speaker 1And, uh, then the next question is, uh, earlier before the session, and when you were describing some of the subjective observations, you mentioned the, uh, halos that you'd seen, that you'd see a flash followed by, uh,
speaker 3And we finally had S2 to take his halo off and put it away.
speaker 3Excuse me, I'm sorry.
speaker 1Well, okay. Now, the, uh, uh, the aftereffects, were they, were they present most of the time? Did you see, did you have, uh, cognizance of, of, of a spike and then a, sort of a glow afterwards?
speaker 2Only on what I call the nova or the super- supernovas.
speaker 1Is that true for you, S3, too?
speaker 3I didn't really notice a halo effect myself.
speaker 2I, I guess I'm not sure what, what we're calling the, the halo effect. You mean a, a diffused, uh, brightness?
speaker 1More, more like an afterglow.
speaker 2Afterglow, halo, after-
speaker 3Did, did I call any of those? I sure don't remember it.
speaker 1No, I think S2 described them.
speaker 3Yeah, I, I don't think I saw any of those.
speaker 1Okay.
speaker 1And, uh, oh, the other question we had was, uh,
speaker 1uh, do you remember making any observations in lunar orbit? Uh, it's not, I know there were no formal periods, but, uh, any, just in the
speaker 3You know, I thought about that on the way back, and, uh, I was, I was so tired that night that, uh, I, I really don't remember, uh, seeing any flashes, but, uh, I didn't look for any, either. I, so, I, I guess the question would be, I, I consciously did not see any, but I sure, that's, so, I, I wouldn't take that as a data point.
speaker 1Okay, that's fine.
speaker 3Yeah.
speaker 1And then, uh, the final question that I have is, uh, after our formal session, uh, that was on, that was at about 191 GET, uh, you then had a sleep period later on. Do you remember whether you saw any during that sleep period closer in? It's significant whether you're inside the magnetopause or not.
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 2I don't consciously recall, but I don't really recall that there was any night, except on the lunar surface, that I didn't, at some time or another, see some.
speaker 1You, you definitely, you didn't see any on the lunar surface?
speaker 2I just, no, I don't remember about the lunar surface. There was precious little sleep that night, anyhow, so.
speaker 1Okay, well, that's all the questions I had. Can we, can we house light for a minute? It's, uh,
speaker 1While, uh, while you're dousing the light, I have one additional question. Did you get the impression the light flashes could have been within the cabin, or definitely within your eye?
speaker 2Definitely within the eye.
speaker 1Okay.
speaker 1The, uh, I want to get some idea about orientation and, uh, and length of the streaks. Did you ever see anything of about like
speaker 3No, no, I never did.
speaker 1The, uh, you, you use the, uh, terminology of, uh, 6:00 or hours of the clock. Does that mean to you, uh, when you say 6:00 to the center, about how long a streak is that? That's a hard question to answer, uh, if you are visualizing, uh, something about, oh, about the, the arm's length away from you, how long would you say your longest streak was? That long? You see my fingers? I'll show it on the
speaker 2Let me describe it a different way. Give you a, it appeared to me that the things, uh, I would say, were 3 or 4 inches away from my, my plane, whatever that means.
speaker 3Tell us what it means, yeah.
speaker 2And, were a couple of inches long.
speaker 1A couple of inches long and 3 or 4 inches in front of you. Is that, uh, it looked like this?
speaker 2Too long for me.
speaker 1Or, two of them, I guess.
speaker 1See that one up above?
speaker 2The one up above looks better.
speaker 1Okay, how about this?
speaker 2Uh, probably fairly close.
speaker 3Yeah, I'd say that's probably about as close as the longest one.
speaker 3See, I'm not sure what, what our scale is here. I, I'd rather say that if I could, if I'd consider whatever it may be, but the field of view of, say, my right eye, and take a radius of that, that I'd put a streak at, uh, of about, uh, a half the radius would be the average streak.
speaker 2Half or a little longer.
speaker 3Um, okay.
speaker 1And, do you think, is there any way that you can, you can, uh, associate this length of streak to what you said? Instead, was it longer or shorter, or can you say?
speaker 3Well, it would depend on how big a circle I want to draw for my field of view. Uh, I, I, yeah, I saw streaks, uh, that long, because, uh, because with my eyes closed, I, I imagine a rather big field of view here in my eye. So, uh, yeah, I, I'd see, I'd see streaks that long.
speaker 1One time you said you saw, uh, streaks oriented in a certain direction. Do you remember that?
speaker 3Yes.
speaker 1Which direction?
speaker 3The way you had it, bring it on up, that way.
speaker 1And, Ed, what about you?
speaker 2Well, I think I had them from several directions, and I reported them as moving from one direction to the other at that time. There were several of them.
speaker 1How about, uh, Al? Any particular direction, up and down, left and right?
speaker 3I didn't notice any, any preferred orientation. And here again, I think to try to express the, the, uh, the length of the arc of the flash in terms of the, of the peripheral field, and if you're talking about a, a horizontal peripheral field as being somewhere in the vicinity of 100 and 50 to 160 degrees, then in some, in some cases, the light flashes would go across as much as, as 50 or 60 degrees of that.
speaker 1Yeah, that's interesting.
speaker 1Were the light flashes broken in the center?
speaker 3Some cases they were. In some cases, I had the feeling it was two dots, one immediately following the other, giving the impression of right to left, or top to bottom, or bottom to top, or left to right.
speaker 1The point is, you see, that the retina is so curved that if you draw a straight line, you can't get too long a, long, it shouldn't be able to get too long a streak without breaking out of the retina again, you know, in the plane of the retina, because it's shaped like that.
speaker 3But, it has some depth, doesn't it?
speaker 1And, if it had been any longer than that, uh, it would just, is, is on the retina.
speaker 2Can't hear that.
speaker 1Can't hear you.
speaker 1It should not have been any longer than what I showed you if it just went through the retina as one track, but if it went through a couple of eyes, then you'd have the impression of a long streak. That's why we're interested in the character.
speaker 1I have one more about the cloud that you saw. This is a new phenomenon which we hadn't expected. Can you describe this lightning behind the cloud?
speaker 2I think it occurred, I reported it a couple of times, and it appeared, as I recall, to be down low on one eye or the other, and it was just a, a diffuse lighting.
speaker 1Any color?
speaker 2White, silver.
speaker 1If you were out in the country and looking at the horizon and there was lightning behind a cloud, was it like that?
speaker 2Except, generally, if you do that, you can see a streak behind the cloud. This, there was no streak. It was just a diffuse lighting.
speaker 1Simulated, when they get out. We, we have, um, a little gizmo that will simulate that sort of phosphene when you, when you get, get, when you get out of the, out of, out of quarantine, maybe we'll have a look at it.
speaker 1One last attempt to try to do the cloud here. Can you douse the lights a minute?
speaker 1Good show.
speaker 3It's still wet.
speaker 1Was there anything like that?
speaker 2I didn't see it.
speaker 1It's a pretty dim cloud, right?
speaker 2I am not dark-adapted, I still don't see it.
speaker 3Mm, I haven't seen anything on it yet.
speaker 1Okay, well, forget it.
speaker 3Okay, but what you're trying to describe is just what we used to call heat lightning as, as a kid, uh.
speaker 1Yeah, this is general, uh, diffuse light.
speaker 3Yeah. You didn't see the relief of the cloud, did you?
speaker 2Uh, no, not necessarily, no. It was just a, just a blob of light.
speaker 1The, um, one final question, we didn't voice up to you a question about, uh, whether there, you, you noticed any other, uh, sensations besides flashes, which was, the reason for asking that was that if it was, uh, you know, did you feel any tingling or, or find yourself twitching or, or hear anything? The reason for that is, if it is a interaction back in the brain, then, then your other senses are just about as sensitive as your visual sense, and maybe you should feel something, but you never noticed that.
speaker 2I didn't notice.
speaker 3Didn't notice any sensation.
speaker 1There, there's two things to, to think about. Did you notice your, your thumb itching, or your lips twitching?
speaker 1In particular.
speaker 3No.
speaker 3Never, never looked for it, either.
speaker 1Well, it's, you know, these are suggestive questions, and the fact that you say no is, uh, significant.
speaker 2If you can press on with different parts of the anatomy, you might get a yes, but
speaker 2we'll move on.
speaker 1Those are the two biggest cross-sections for
speaker 3I, I, you know, if there's something significant about your thumbs or your lips, uh, you ought, maybe you should warn the people to look for that, uh, because, uh, I don't know, unless it's going to be so obvious that, that, that you would
speaker 1Why, do you say you itch all over?
speaker 2Well, sometimes you might think you should be.
speaker 3Feel very comfortable.
speaker 1Okay, we, we're in.
speaker 2Thank you very much.
speaker 1So long.
speaker 1I think, uh, I think I said to Ed yesterday that you really did provide, uh, an enormously improved metadata on this phenomenon than we've had in any previous flights. It's great.
speaker 2Well, I would, I would add this to that. I think that's the, the way you really have to go is to take a definite period, set it aside and do it, because otherwise it's so random and, uh, so many other things going through your mind that, uh, it's the only way you gather quantitative data.
speaker 1However, you, you did a remarkable job of concentrating on that length of time. Uh, do you, uh, feel that that was being unreasonable to ask you to do that without you going to sleep or something like that? It's a pretty boring thing to do, just sitting there lying and watching it. Do you think we, you know, we should be, uh, that, uh, in planning for, for doing this sort of thing on future missions that we should be, uh, we shouldn't try and do much more than we tried to, to get you to do because it's just too much just to sit there lying there trying to concentrate that length of time?
speaker 2If you can find a time period during the flight when, uh, when they have, when the crew doesn't have anything else to do, I think it's reasonable to suggest that, yeah. Uh-huh. I don't think I would do it, uh, before a sleep period or when they're tired, or they'll go to sleep on you.
speaker 3Yeah, you know, I think along that line, Phil, by the time you've, if you've, you know, talked a little bit pre-flight like we did, then, uh, and then you know the phenomena is there because, you know, the, your first sleep period or the first time you get to spacecraft dark and close your eyes, you're going to see flashes. And, uh, so then that, you know, sort of sparks your curiosity a little more, and then when they say, "Let's settle down and, and count them," why, I think you're agreeable to it.
speaker 1All right.
speaker 2Okay.
speaker 3Hey, one other comment on that, and I don't, I'm not even sure that I, that it, that it's related, but I, I really think, uh, that, this is just a general impression, that if I would look at my, look at say the glow of the wristwatch, or something like that, and then close my eyes again, I'd almost always see a, see a flash. And, and I, and I tried then to correlate looking, uh, at say a crack through the, uh, through the, uh, window shade, or looking at my watch or something, and then closing my eyes, and I, I really came to the impression that, uh, that, that the two may have been correlated, but I never really looked at it enough to, uh, to say that for sure, but I think there was a correlation between, between seeing a light or something like this and then closing your eyes and, and pretty soon, you, you'd pick up that flash.
speaker 1That's, that's an important observation. If the action is directly in the phypole (?) or the retina cells, the outer segment, you might expect it to behave the way electrical phosphenes do, rather than, than just from light, which takes dark adaptation. What do you think about that, Ed?
speaker 2I'm not quite sure what your point is. I was going to make the comment that, uh, with respect to the flashes, putting the flashlight in my eyes did not seem to destroy my dark adaptation. Uh, now, what that means, I don't know.
speaker 1Did you do like that?
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 1That slow?
speaker 2Or that fast?
speaker 1Yeah, for some time.
speaker 2Well, you certainly wiped out some of the nerves.
speaker 1I wiped out something.
speaker 2You wiped it all out.
speaker 1I'm not sure that's true, Chuck.
speaker 2How, how long did you do it?
speaker 1You should wipe it all out.
speaker 2Uh, oh, couple of minutes, minute.
speaker 1A minute?
speaker 2Back and forth like this, about five seconds per track.
speaker 1Something like that.
speaker 3Yeah, hey, hey, you know, now, I, I, what you're saying though is that the reason you think you didn't knock it all out is because you could still see the flashes? Is that what you're saying?
speaker 2Well, the cockpit looked different. Remember, I was doing this eyes open.
speaker 1Right.
speaker 2And, uh, it seemed like with just what I consider dark adaptation, that I was more dark adapted, uh, that I dark adapted much sooner after doing that than I did when we started the experiment.
speaker 1You would.
speaker 3That figures, yeah.
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 1Sure, that you would do.
speaker 2Because you wipe out the cones plus with that, just with the flash, you didn't do it with the tungsten light or, you know.
speaker 3Hey, I, I'd like to make sure on this dark adaptation. Now, I know during the, uh, during the formal, uh, hour, 40 minutes, whatever it was, that Ed was, was shining the light. But I don't know whether you picked it up on air-to-ground or not, but I had done that prior to that during one of the sleep periods, and there's, there's just, you do not have to be dark adapted to see these beauties.
speaker 1Yeah, I think that's the conclusion drawn from what Ed's saying, too.
speaker 2Yeah, that's a very significant data point because it almost certainly proves that it's not, not a real light in your, in your eye, generated in your eye. It's actually an interaction.
speaker 1Yeah, but why did it take us so long when we started the experiment before we saw anything? It was quite a while, and yet when I wiped the light across my eyes, within 30 or 40 seconds, there, there they were again.
speaker 2It took 17 minutes.
speaker 1Pardon?
speaker 217 minutes.
speaker 1No, no response from me.
speaker 2Yeah, but when I did it with the flashlight, within 30 or 40 seconds, they were right there again.
speaker 1Well, you, you said that they were fainter, they seemed fainter than they had on previous, previous times that you'd observed them, and there definitely is a threshold effect of some sort because you saw twice as many during that period as the other two did. And, uh, and, uh, I think maybe it's just, my guess was when, when you didn't see them and then you started to see them regularly, uh, was that, uh, it was just that they were fainter, they seemed fainter than you expected, and so it took you a while to sort of, sort of get your attention down to, to, to find the ones that you were looking for.
speaker 2Well, that may be, that may be the case, except, uh, they did indeed appear fainter in the beginning. And it wasn't a matter of, of looking for fainter objects, they were brighter after, after a while.
speaker 1And they also for you, Al?
speaker 2And they didn't diminish in brightness when I did the flashlight across my eyes. They were still just as bright 30 seconds later as they had been before I used the flashlight.
speaker 1Mm-hmm.
speaker 2And that's why I'm questioning the dark adaptation bit. I, either I didn't wipe the dark adaptation out, or there is something related to dark adaptation that influences the phenomenon.
speaker 1I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense.
speaker 3That, that doggone time period that we did it, and, and the, the few flashes we saw was very surprising to me. And, and we talked about this, and we commented on it at the time. Uh, boy, it seemed like, uh, you know, you'd wake up during a sleep period and
speaker 2They're all over the place.
speaker 3Now, here again, maybe I lose track of time. Uh, you know, you're laying there in the dark cabin, and maybe it was longer than what I thought, but it just seemed like that, you know, there's, there's abundance of flashes. And I was amazed when it took 17 minutes to see a flash. I thought anytime that you wanted to close your eyes, you were going to, and concentrate on it, you were going to
speaker 2See them.
speaker 3you, you were, you were going to see these things.
speaker 2That's why I suggest that you really ought to set us a time period aside, because it is such a random function as far as I'm concerned, that to try to do it, uh, on a non-coordinated basis is often tough.
speaker 1Yeah, yeah.
speaker 2Plus the fact that I think that, uh, that each individual is going to report at different, uh, levels of activity, too. I had the feeling there was maybe some little faint things that I would sort of see that I didn't want to talk about because I couldn't define them as a flash.
speaker 3Yeah, I had those, too.
speaker 2So, uh
speaker 1I, I think, I think also it's a good idea to do it this way because your subjective impression is not necessarily right. Like, you felt that your, that you saw more of them in your left eye than your right eye, and that wasn't proved.
speaker 2It was wrong.
speaker 1Apparently. Now, we need to get the data real-time, though.
speaker 2When you go to sleep at night, do you see any of these things?
speaker 1Most people do see something as they're going to sleep in a darkened room.
speaker 2They can't get to sleep right away, down here.
speaker 1Uh
speaker 2Certainly, I don't know.
speaker 3Yeah, you, you, you got lights blinking around, you know, in your eyes if you get in a real dark room occasionally. But, uh, and, and maybe it's because we'd never really concentrated on looking for this particular type of phenomenon.
speaker 1These phenomenon that you saw were different from the ones that you you see once in a while?
speaker 3Oh, definitely.
speaker 2Certainly a lot more frequent, yeah, there's no question about that.
speaker 1How about brightness?
speaker 2How about what?
speaker 1Brightness.
speaker 2It's hard to say.
speaker 1Yeah, it would be.
speaker 3I guess we'll have, I'll, I'll make a note, uh, to, to see if I see any of those, you know, uh, from here on, uh, but I certainly haven't since we've been back. Uh, but here again, and, and Ed mentioned this, and, and I agree with him, but it's another subjective thing, that the flashes you see when you wake up in the middle of the night as a whole appear to be brighter than the flashes as a whole during that experiment that we did during, uh, during the day. And, and I'm like Al, I, I was a little reluctant to call anything except a very positive flash during that, during that time frame, uh, you know, I wanted to make really sure that that was indeed, uh, uh, a mark at, at the time that I called it. But those that you saw during the, during the middle of the night appeared to be brighter, and, uh, like I say, appeared to be more of them, but here again, you know, you may lay there for an hour and, and you think it's five, five, 10 minutes or something, I don't know. Maybe, maybe you lose track of the time. But, uh, it's a subjective thing.
speaker 1Ed saw one blue flash. Did anyone else see color?
speaker 3No.
speaker 2Uh, wait a minute. No, that wasn't blue. It was a, a silver, bl- blue-white, sort of like
speaker 1Like a blue diamond, you said.
speaker 2Like a blue diamond, yeah.
speaker 1What, was that the brightest that you saw?
speaker 2I don't recall it was the brightest, no.
speaker 1Mm.
speaker 2Have, has anybody been hit in the head and seen stars?
speaker 1You have?
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 1Yeah.
speaker 2Were these anything like that?
speaker 1Yeah, I think I was more concentrating on the pain.
speaker 2When you, when you go to bed tonight, if you are in a dark room, if you
speaker 1Just knuckle your eyeballs, you should see flashes and it might be worth trying that to see whether they look like the same sort of thing.
speaker 2Yeah, we cry a lot in here.
speaker 2Okay. No, I'll say, you know, if you can get the the next crew's interested, uh, Phil, you know, it makes a great topic of conversation and, uh, you know, during the flight you got nothing else to talk about, you can talk about light flashes. So, uh, you know, I think if you get the get the crew's curiosity aroused, why, it's a good deal.
speaker 1Well, I think the the interest the the pressure on the subject which is built up is such that there will be some formal experiment on 15, probably the way to go.
speaker 2Okay.
speaker 1Thanks very much.
speaker 2Yeah, Mike, thank you.
speaker 1We're okay.
speaker 3And we'll we'll keep back in touch with you and let you know what we're going to do with this other thing and what we're going to do, how things are coming timewise for the end of this, too.
speaker 2All right, Chuck.
speaker 3For the, you know, you know what the the date is, you know what the time is now? 07:31 on Saturday, the
speaker 2Oh, is that release time, you mean?
speaker 3Yeah.
speaker 2Work on springing us early, Chuck.
speaker 3Somebody said that the 21 days ended up on Saturday morning, yeah.
speaker 2Yeah.
speaker 2Uh, we've been led to believe otherwise, Chuck.
speaker 3In the debriefing plan, it says 08:00 the 26th on Friday.
speaker 2Deke says we get out, uh, Friday morning.
speaker 3Yeah, he he called yesterday.
speaker 3Yeah, he called me last night. He says, "How the hell did we ever get this number in here?" I said, "I don't know where you got that number, but"
speaker 2Well, the radiation people are here. We're talking about release and all that kind of business. Can we get a a hack on when they're going to get total body counts?
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